Talent keeping??

[thecampster]

16 hours ago, Lurker said:

I can't believe I'm about to beat this dead horse again but here goes...

Because of the way Carroll and Millsap's contracts were worked, there was no way the Hawks were retaining both after the magical 14/15 season. Since they were two year and not three year contracts (and I may be foggy on this now) they couldn't be signed under bird, so one or the other was 100% gone. There was nothing stopping it.

And so that was the end. 15/16 was still a good team but if that NBA rule with the cap wasn't like that, I suppose you could retain Carroll and instead of being good, being great that year, and if you retain Horford, being great the next year. In 17/18, cracks in the armor would have likely still shown with how things roll down the hill naturally though.

Not true. We were able to sign both for more but we would have had to make decisions with other players.  An easy scenario (only one I'm suggesting in hindsight) would have been assuming we were losing Horford the next year and flipping him for a player and a pick.  We were about $5,000,000 from retaining both. There were options, we just didn't want to commit to them long term.

[High5]

36 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Not true. We were able to sign both for more but we would have had to make decisions with other players.  An easy scenario (only one I'm suggesting in hindsight) would have been assuming we were losing Horford the next year and flipping him for a player and a pick.  We were about $5,000,000 from retaining both. There were options, we just didn't want to commit to them long term.

Getting rid of Horford would have defeated the purpose. 

[Spud2nique]

18 hours ago, turnermx said:

No, we didn't have the talent to keep. We didn't have a player Giannis caliper and still do not, Trae is the best player we have drafted in a long time so that's a start.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

 

 

Yup!

[Lurker]

36 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Not true. We were able to sign both for more but we would have had to make decisions with other players.  An easy scenario (only one I'm suggesting in hindsight) would have been assuming we were losing Horford the next year and flipping him for a player and a pick.  We were about $5,000,000 from retaining both. There were options, we just didn't want to commit to them long term.

Okay so this would have been what would have needed to happen, and it's certainly not a guarantee it would've worked smoothly. To not eventually end up with a major bump in the road, even if it was naturally, the Hawks would've had to evaluate fairly and trade off for a player and a pick or a young player that would help eventually. The problem was, and it's not dissing Mike Budenholzer as a coach, was he only saw the season ahead of him and not down the road. 

Bud just wasn't ready to be a President of Basketball Ops and do it well at the time. If Danny Ferry wasn't placed on leave (although I still want to say part of 14/15 was an us against the world mentality because of that situation) I think he manages it better and I think another GM other than Wes at least attempts to keep reshaping on the fly and seeing if not all was lost.

[warcore]

Ferry made two mistakes...

One of them was letting Larry Drew go way too early. He had our intel and Ferry let him take it to the Bucks. Had we just waited until after draft to can Larry, we'd have our Giannis

[JayBirdHawk]

2 hours ago, thecampster said:

Not true. We were able to sign both for more but we would have had to make decisions with other players.  An easy scenario (only one I'm suggesting in hindsight) would have been assuming we were losing Horford the next year and flipping him for a player and a pick.  We were about $5,000,000 from retaining both. There were options, we just didn't want to commit to them long term.

Ferry offered both Milsap and Carroll 4 year deals initially, the declined to take shorter deals with the increased CAP on the horizon.

The signing of their 2 year deals limited our abilty to resign both when they were FAs. Millsap at $28 mil and Carroll at the $15 he got from toronto.

Sure we could of traded Al but that defeats Diesel's question about 'retaining talent'. 

IIRC, if the Hawks were to resign both Milsap and DMC at what they signed for, they would have had to trade at least 2, of at least Korver, Mike Scott and Thabo and take back no salary,  IIRC to clear capspace to sign them both.

[AHF]

7 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Ferry offered both Milsap and Carroll 4 year deals initially, the declined to take shorter deals with the increased CAP on the horizon.

The signing of their 2 year deals limited our abilty to resign both when they were FAs. Millsap at $28 mil and Carroll at the $15 he got from toronto.

Sure we could of traded Al but that defeats Diesel's question about 'retaining talent'. 

IIRC, if the Hawks were to resign both Milsap and DMC at what they signed for, they would have had to trade at least 2, of at least Korver, Mike Scott and Thabo and take back no salary,  IIRC to clear capspace to sign them both.

And find teams willing to take them while giving back no salary.  Not an easy task.

[kg01]

15 minutes ago, AHF said:

And find teams willing to take them while giving back no salary.  Not an easy task.

IOW, suggesting we could've signed both Sap and Carroll is effectively false.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, kg01 said:

IOW, suggesting we could've signed both Sap and Carroll is effectively false.

Yep - especially when the conversation is “why didn’t we keep our talent?” and not “we should have traded our best player during our best season in 20 years cause that always works out for us.”

[thecampster]

I can't believe I have to go back in detail and defend this.

Things that led up to Carroll and Millsap leaving.

1) On June 25th, the Hawks added Tim Hardaway Jr. and 2 2nd round picks for the draft rights to Jerian Grant. Salary added $1.3 million 2015 and 2.2 million 2016.

2) On July 9th, the Hawks added $8.8 million with trade kicker on Tiago Splitter for draft considerations.

3) The previous season, the Hawks acquired Thabo Sefalosha at $4 million annually.

4) In 2013 the Hawks gave Jeff Teague a 4 year extension at $8 million annually.

5) The NBA salary cap in 2015-16 was only $70 million. Remember the cap jumped over 20 million the next season. 

 

So using the above numbers, The Hawks committed $22 million dollars or 31.4% of the cap on players who were all phased off the roster in the short term but who denied the $5 millionish difference needed to keep both players.  The example of Horford was just used to stop idiotic challenge posts...was not the "serious" consideration and was spelled out in the post. Yes I'm having a bad day and yes having to constantly defend fact on the board gets old.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/atlanta-hawks/cap/2014/  Here you can see the salary from the 2014-15 season.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/atlanta-hawks/cap/2015/  Here is the 15-16 final cap numbers.

You can see that in 15-16 we ended up 1.4 million over the cap but $13 million under the LT. Carroll's 2015 salary from the Raptors was $13.6 million.  Tiago's cap hit was 8.8 million. A difference of 4.8 million.  So the difference between keeping Carroll or not was $4.8 million.  Mike Scott + Thabo in a salary dump created that space. Considering Mike was a near total loss that year, not a bad plan.  Thabo moved and don't make the trade for Hardaway and you can sign Carroll or....wait to make the Hardaway deal until after signing Carroll, you had an exception to use for the Hardaway salary.

Other things not considered here, the salary in Sportrac includes all of Hinrich's salary but he wasn't acquired until mid year.  Simply dumping Scott + Hinrich's salary would have been enough.  

 

Conclusion: There was absolutely enough there to sign both players for what they both signed for.  Some of you are maddening.

[thecampster]

and before even one of you starts in with some maddening posts of "they would have if they could" or "everyone knows they couldn't", argue with sportrac's official salary figures. You aren't arguing with me, you're arguing with them.

[kg01]

You are wrong and you're not listening.

[thecampster]

Then sportrac is wrong not me. The math is there in plain english.  We chose other priorities. It was completely plausible to make Carroll's contract work as well. It only took a little reworking on the roster.  The cap is very simple.  The rules governing resigning the players wouldn't have mattered if we had cleared just a few million in room and or not traded for Hardaway which we had no intention of keeping, not traded for Thabo before and not valued other talent we were just shipping off in a year.  We managed the situation badly, there was money for both.  L2Cap.

21 minutes ago, kg01 said:

You are wrong and you're not listening.

 

[Diesel]

That's how you KOD a streak. 

Anyway... the contracts were bad and it's unfortunate that we couldn't get either to reup before their contract came to the end.  Carroll got paid but he was never the same player. 

[kg01]

7 hours ago, thecampster said:

Then sportrac is wrong not me. The math is there in plain english.  We chose other priorities. It was completely plausible to make Carroll's contract work as well. It only took a little reworking on the roster.  The cap is very simple.  The rules governing resigning the players wouldn't have mattered if we had cleared just a few million in room and or not traded for Hardaway which we had no intention of keeping, not traded for Thabo before and not valued other talent we were just shipping off in a year.  We managed the situation badly, there was money for both.  L2Cap.

 

The ability to "make the contracts work" doesn't mean they'd be good contracts.

Think for yourself, camp.  Don't let the interwebs influence you.

[Gray Mule]

Hindsight is always 20-20 !  When all is said and done, we can look back and see where we could have done things differently.  What we can't change is, the player or players will not re sign if they don't want to be here.

Perhaps we tend to forget this.  Ownership, the GM department and the coaching department were all in disagreement, or so it seemed at the time, and the players simply didn't want to be caught up in the middle of this, so they left by whatever means that they used.

Right now, things are different.  We believe that all are in agreement.  Whew!  That is a relief, isn't it.  Hawks have a lot of very young talent and payroll room to  make a move or three and now have the "grow your own" experience going on.

Payroll will not go down until the season's end.  Then, we lose a lot of dead payroll, paying players no longer here. With more draft picks coming or being traded, next summer can't come soon enough!

GO ATL HAWKS !!

Hurry home, John Collins

 

[KB21]

1 hour ago, Gray Mule said:

Hindsight is always 20-20 !  When all is said and done, we can look back and see where we could have done things differently.  What we can't change is, the player or players will not re sign if they don't want to be here.

Perhaps we tend to forget this.  Ownership, the GM department and the coaching department were all in disagreement, or so it seemed at the time, and the players simply didn't want to be caught up in the middle of this, so they left by whatever means that they used.

Right now, things are different.  We believe that all are in agreement.  Whew!  That is a relief, isn't it.  Hawks have a lot of very young talent and payroll room to  make a move or three and now have the "grow your own" experience going on.

Payroll will not go down until the season's end.  Then, we lose a lot of dead payroll, paying players no longer here. With more draft picks coming or being traded, next summer can't come soon enough!

GO ATL HAWKS !!

Hurry home, John Collins

 

Has it finally sunk in that this team isn't any good?  It's not going to be good next year either.  Or the year after that.

[mcleitsy]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

That's how you KOD a streak. 

Anyway... the contracts were bad and it's unfortunate that we couldn't get either to reup before their contract came to the end.  Carroll got paid but he was never the same player. 

I mean what has Carroll done since he left? Why the retread on whether or not we re-signed him, it would just be the same situation we have with Baze, which was immediate regret as soon as he was re-signed. 

[kg01]

11 minutes ago, mcleitsy said:

I mean what has Carroll done since he left? Why the retread on whether or not we re-signed him, it would just be the same situation we have with Baze, which was immediate regret as soon as he was re-signed. 

Agreed.  The teeth-gnashing over losing Carroll is matched only by the regretful lamentations of the fanbases who've signed him since he left.

Go back to your home (thread), @KB21

[Gray Mule]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

Has it finally sunk in that this team isn't any good?  It's not going to be good next year either.  Or the year after that.

I am very disappointed, to say the least.  Players out injured has hurt and the Hawks didn't have any talent to spare.  Example:  Last night Kevin Huerter played one minute, had a player from the other team throw a rolling body block on him, spraining his ankle.  In that one minute, he had shot one time, a three, and hit it.

Football has outlawed this.  15 yard penalty.  Foul, Hawks get the ball.. That's all.  John Collins has yet to see the floor.  Likewise, Justin Anderson, known as a defensive stopper. 

Yes, I knew that we weren't really good.  I've not decided that they are terrible.  Not yet.  Get all our players back healthy and give us some maturing time.