How do we get another 2020 1st (Non-Lotto)

[NBASupes]

It would be wise for the Hawks to buy two high 2nd round picks for cash just to trade them for vets on teams that need to clear cap but don't want to trade them for free. 

[macdaddy]

9 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Still, bad teams pray for lottery luck. Good teams like the Spurs and Raptors know how to find winning players. You gotta start somewhere, but their model of team building is the most efficient and sustainable. 

I just don't see how that is the most efficient.   The Spurs only had the sustainable run because they picked the Admiral and Duncan at the top of the lottery.   Raptors never did anything before last year.   People point to Miami and they havent' been relavant in 6 years and they only were because they had multiple top draft picks. 

[JayBirdHawk]

12 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

How long did that take?  And who did they trade to get the MVP to take them over the top.  Was it the 9th pick in the 2009 draft?  Who'd they trade to get Marc Gasol?  maybe the 5th pick of the 2011 draft?  

There are many ways to build a team, no one sure fire method.  One thing we know is that lottery talent is involved everytime.  

Yep, you can't look at the end result without looking at the path to get there. How many years did Toronto toil through Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Chris Bosh, DeRozan, before pretty much lucking into Kawhi.

[JayBirdHawk]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

It would be wise for the Hawks to buy two high 2nd round picks for cash just to trade them for vets on teams that need to clear cap but don't want to trade them for free. 

Philly has a plethora - 34, 36, 49 and 58..

NOP has 3 - 39, 42 and 60

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Philly has a plethora - 34, 36, 49 and 58..

NOP has 3 - 39, 42 and 60

I can see them selling one of the picks for cash. 

[bleachkit]

8 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I just don't see how that is the most efficient.   The Spurs only had the sustainable run because they picked the Admiral and Duncan at the top of the lottery.   Raptors never did anything before last year.   People point to Miami and they havent' been relavant in 6 years and they only were because they had multiple top draft picks. 

San Antonio's sustained success was far more than Duncan. And the fact that the Raptors are still title contenders post-Kawhi validates what they are doing. 

[JayBirdHawk]

12 hours ago, Vol4ever said:

I'm thinking we need vets and not youngsters.  We need to go win mode now. 

I want vets too but I'm just not narrowly focused on next season. We have the capspace to fill out the roster via FAcy or trades for vets. Adding another young player and stashing him in the GLeague (similat to what Toronto did with Siakam or what the Spurs do with their young players as well) to be ready to play the following season is also a route to take especially if we are intend in preserving some capspace for next season.

[bleachkit]

12 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Yep, you can't look at the end result without looking at the path to get there. How many years did Toronto toil through Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Chris Bosh, DeRozan, before pretty much lucking into Kawhi.

You're talking about mostly the pre-Ujiri years. Ujirii has been one of the best GMs in the NBA. Look how they good they are, with no Kawhi, it's truly impressive. 

[macdaddy]

6 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

San Antonio's sustained success was far more than Duncan. And the fact that the Raptors are still title contenders post-Kawhi validates what they are doing. 

How many times did they get out of the first round without Duncan?  How many finals?   

I love the Raptors but it's yet to be seen if they are title contenders without Kawhi.  I'd love it though.  

[thecampster]

24 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

It would be wise for the Hawks to buy two high 2nd round picks for cash just to trade them for vets on teams that need to clear cap but don't want to trade them for free. 

The CBA requires "something" in a trade. The don't want to trade them for free. I know that's not what you meant but there has to be value.  CBA rules don't allow the selling of picks for cash. Usually its our 2nd in 3 years for your second this year. ETC. Although money can also exchange hands, there has to be player/pick value.

Edited August 24, 2020 by thecampster

[thecampster]

3 minutes ago, thecampster said:

The CBA requires "something" in a trade. The don't want to trade them for free. I know that's not what you meant but there has to be value.  CBA rules don't allow the selling of picks for cash. Usually its our 2nd in 3 years for your second this year. ETC. Although money can also exchange hands, there has to be player/pick value.

Instead of trading a player for another player or a draft pick, teams can also include cash in the transaction (including as salary reimbursement for a player they’re trading away). The aggregate amount of cash teams can pay or receive is limited in each salary cap year. The aggregate cash limit in the 2019-20 season is $5.617 million, and the limit increases (or decreases) each season at the same rate as the salary cap.

• Cash that a team pays during that season’s trades is not netted against cash received in that season’s trades.

• For example, in the 2019-20 season, a team could pay out $5.617 million in an October trade and also receive $5.617 million from another team in a November trade. However, they could not pay or receive any cash in any trade for the rest of the salary cap year.

[thecampster]

Here's the basic rules for sending/receiving cash in this article though its more complicated than the author suggests and includes cash paid/spent during the regular season, cap considerations etc.

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2017/06/how-cash-trading-rules-may-impact-teams-draft-plans.html

[JayBirdHawk]

8 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

You're talking about mostly the pre-Ujiri years. Ujirii has been one of the best GMs in the NBA. Look how they good they are, with no Kawhi, it's truly impressive. 

Yeah...his 1st year he had the #5 pick (Valanciunas) and the #8 pick (Terrance Ross) from the previous draft

Also on his roster #9 pick Derozan, 8th pick Rudy Gay

6 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Instead of trading a player for another player or a draft pick, teams can also include cash in the transaction (including as salary reimbursement for a player they’re trading away). The aggregate amount of cash teams can pay or receive is limited in each salary cap year. The aggregate cash limit in the 2019-20 season is $5.617 million, and the limit increases (or decreases) each season at the same rate as the salary cap.

• Cash that a team pays during that season’s trades is not netted against cash received in that season’s trades.

• For example, in the 2019-20 season, a team could pay out $5.617 million in an October trade and also receive $5.617 million from another team in a November trade. However, they could not pay or receive any cash in any trade for the rest of the salary cap year.

How does that count against available capspace or does it?

[AHF]

2 hours ago, thecampster said:

So as requested, I provided a few ways we could garner another 1st round pick this year. Now for  my true feelings.

I like Wiseman. I wanted Wiseman. I really didn't want any other player in this draft except maybe Ball.  Our cap situation isn't going to substantially improve going forward. This year, we have the most cap room we are going to have going forward. In the 2021-22 season, we have options to pick up on 4 rookies and will need to sign John Collins long term. Waiting until next offseason to try and sign our finishing pieces will land us cash short of any substantial improvement.

Another pick this year is even more locked in guaranteed cash we have to spend, further depleting our cap flexibility in following years. I don't want another pick and failing Ball or Wiseman falling to 6 (very unlikely), I am going to make a bold and controversial proposal. We sell the pick we already have.

The Hawks now have somewhere in the neighborhood of $46 million to spend in this year's free agency and that doesn't include resigning Teague. The 6th pick in the draft will bring back 1 star (not superstar) level talent from another team in the salary range of $18 to $28 million per year. The pick itself is going to cost $6.5 million year 1.  The net result of selling the pick as opposed to using our cap space to sign someone is $12 -$22 million. IMHO, if the pick is sold for a mid-level talent, a known commodity, the end result would be far more flexibility and veteran presence than leaving to chance we can sign a free agent. Trading for a talent may even help in signing that other free agent. A frugal move in selling the pick could acquire 1 veteran talent to back up Collins and give the Hawks enough cap space to sign one star on the rise, as well as keeping Teague in house.

So that's my vote. Trade the pick for borderline star talent on a mid-level contract and let our young guys continue to develop as a group. Then in 21-22, use the exclusive rights for Collins to sign him into space above the cap but below the LT.

If we kept our #6 pick and added a mid-first round pick, are you seeing us not being able to sign a max salary?

I'm showing us as having $58.6M committed for 2021-22 right now with the need to add in any picks and Collins' salary hold and any FAs we sign this offseason to whom we owe money longer term.  

I'm not opposed to trading our pick for a veteran talent (and suggested as much on another thread), but I'm also not seeing how going the route of keeping our picks and adding another (as some are suggesting on this thread) would leave us "cash short of any substantial improvement."  

[thecampster]

15 minutes ago, AHF said:

If we kept our #6 pick and added a mid-first round pick, are you seeing us not being able to sign a max salary?

I'm showing us as having $58.6M committed for 2021-22 right now with the need to add in any picks and Collins' salary hold and any FAs we sign this offseason to whom we owe money longer term.  

I'm not opposed to trading our pick for a veteran talent (and suggested as much on another thread), but I'm also not seeing how going the route of keeping our picks and adding another (as some are suggesting on this thread) would leave us "cash short of any substantial improvement."  

We are going to have to fill the roster for the upcoming season as well. This presents 2 problems. 1 cap holds. 2 multiyear deals to get people to sign for 20-21. The chance we'll have max salary available in 21-22 is slim.  It's all because of John Collin's salary.

Let's pretend we sign 6 and got 14 from The Pitts...err Boston. Those 2 picks commit $10 million in new salary. Let's also pretend we make the playoffs and draft 16 overall next year. That's another 3.5 million. Assuming John's cap hold of 12 million we're at $72.4 million of committed salary. Assume a cap of $110 million and you have $37.4 million to sign people. But that means not resigning Teague to a multiyear to backup and not signing any vets to this year's roster to 2 year deals.

Same scenario but instead of getting 14 we trade 6. We can absorb that 10 million player with an identical (ish) cap hit.  Say we take on $18 million in salary for 6 instead. The real impact on the $37.4 million is $8 million bringing it down to $29.4 left in cap space (give or take a bit). One more quality player worth 18 million and $29.4 in cap space (known commodities) is way better to me than rolling the dice on 2 players in a college basketball shortened season where we didn't get to see these players perform in the tourneys. I'll take the known commodity and an $8 million hit with a developing core over adding another youngster.

Edited August 24, 2020 by thecampster

[thecampster]

29 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Yeah...his 1st year he had the #5 pick (Valanciunas) and the #8 pick (Terrance Ross) from the previous draft

Also on his roster #9 pick Derozan, 8th pick Rudy Gay

How does that count against available capspace or does it?

I've been looking for the answer and I'm not sure.

 

Check that found it.  It does not affect the cap from either side. Other sports it does, not in the NBA. Because they cap the money transfers.

Edited August 24, 2020 by thecampster

[NBASupes]

36 minutes ago, thecampster said:

The CBA requires "something" in a trade. The don't want to trade them for free. I know that's not what you meant but there has to be value.  CBA rules don't allow the selling of picks for cash. Usually its our 2nd in 3 years for your second this year. ETC. Although money can also exchange hands, there has to be player/pick value.

I know what you mean

I mean a fake 2nd (protected top 55) or the rights to Alpha Kaba. Cash. Something like that

Edited August 24, 2020 by NBASupes

[Spud2nique]

Let’s buy 4 1st round draft picks to add to our young squad.

-  

 ... it ain’t nuttin cut that  b

[thecampster]

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I know what you mean

I mean a fake 2nd (protected top 55) or the rights to Alpha Kaba. Cash. Something like that

Yah I knew you knew I just didn't wanna start Spud on a lets buy 3 picks tirade....dang, too late.

 

[AHF]

27 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

San Antonio's sustained success was far more than Duncan. And the fact that the Raptors are still title contenders post-Kawhi validates what they are doing. 

San Antonio's titles were driven by Duncan.  He was the centerpiece for every title team, including the year that Kawhi won the Finals MVP.  (TD was #2 in scoring, #1 in all rebounding categories, #1 in blocks, #3 in assists while KL was #4 in scoring, #2 or 3 in rebounding categories, #1 in steals, #6 in assists).  It is no coincidence that they haven't even threatened a title without him.

I'll give you my opinion that the Raptors aren't legit contenders and only have any chance this year because of the mercurial nature of the restart playoffs.  Still don't think they will win but teams were disrupted and changed (such as LA losing Avery Bradley and Rondo) as a result of the restart.