Popular Post NBASupes Posted May 20, 2021 Popular Post Report Share Posted May 20, 2021 Beyond strictly looking at wins and losses, net rating gives a clear picture of team performance. The following infographics show the trajectory of every team in the NBA in terms of how they rank in the category. Atlanta Hawks Boston Celtics Brooklyn Nets Charlotte Hornets Chicago Bulls Cleveland Cavaliers Dallas Mavericks Denver Nuggets Detroit Pistons Golden State Warriors Houston Rockets Indiana Pacers Los Angeles Clippers Los Angeles Lakers Memphis Grizzlies Miami Heat Milwaukee Bucks Minnesota Timberwolves New Orleans Pelicans New York Knicks Oklahoma City Thunder Orlando Magic Philadelphia 76ers Phoenix Suns Portland Trail Blazers Sacramento Kings San Antonio Spurs Toronto Raptors Utah Jazz Washington Wizards Hawks did well with their complete rebuild but wow, some teams did awful with it. 5 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Popular Post Atlantaholic Posted May 20, 2021 Premium Member Popular Post Report Share Posted May 20, 2021 Arguments for why Tanking doesn't work - R.I.P. May 20, 2021 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post NBASupes Posted May 20, 2021 Author Popular Post Report Share Posted May 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said: Arguments for why Tanking doesn't work - R.I.P. May 20, 2021 It does and doesn't work. The Jazz are proof you don't have to tank but only one team (Miami) in the east moved up without tanking. Orlando did exactly what Jazz tried to do and failed badly. Boston and Miami is the only team in the East that did not tank but they killed Brooklyn in a deal where they got premium picks, so in reality, they benefited like a tanking team. Miami just did like Utah but did hit home runs in FA with Jimmy Butler. Philly tank was four years which seemed like an eternity but it worked out. In the east, it seems like tanking heavy is the only way or killing someone in a trade which is extremely hard to do now. Spurs anti tank only works with superstars. When you have Duncan and Kawhi Leonard, it worked. Without them, they have been on the outskirts. Hawks tank has worked. My big worry in February was we were on pace to be worse off than the Highlight Factory Hawks which we knew were frauds even then. Both teams had 2nd half success due to Bibby trade and for us, the Nate replacing LP. We finished tied for 4th and they finished 8th seed. Took Boston who was #1 in the NBA to 7. We need to beat NY. Sacramento is proof that small markets who draft poorly can't recovery unless they have an elite front office. Small markets must draft well or hit home runs on trades. Minnesota is proof that you can hit on stars but if you can't build a roster around them or hire a good staff, it's still useless. Coaching is not underrated when it comes to regular season success. Chemistry and fit is critical for regular season success. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Atlantaholic Posted May 20, 2021 Premium Member Report Share Posted May 20, 2021 5 minutes ago, NBASupes said: It does and doesn't work. The Jazz are proof you don't have to tank but only one team (Miami) in the east moved up without tanking. Orlando did exactly what Jazz tried to do and failed badly. Boston and Miami is the only team in the East that did not tank but they killed Brooklyn in a deal where they got premium picks, so in reality, they benefited like a tanking team. Miami just did like Utah but did hit home runs in FA with Jimmy Butler. Philly tank was four years which seemed like an eternity but it worked out. In the east, it seems like tanking heavy is the only way or killing someone in a trade which is extremely hard to do now. Spurs anti tank only works with superstars. When you have Duncan and Kawhi Leonard, it worked. Without them, they have been on the outskirts. Hawks tank has worked. My big worry in February was we were on pace to be worse off than the Highlight Factory Hawks which we knew were frauds even then. Both teams had 2nd half success due to Bibby trade and for us, the Nate replacing LP. We finished tied for 4th and they finished 8th seed. Took Boston who was #1 in the NBA to 7. We need to beat NY. Sacramento is proof that small markets who draft poorly can't recovery unless they have an elite front office. Small markets must draft well or hit home runs on trades. Minnesota is proof that you can hit on stars but if you can't build a roster around them or hire a good staff, it's still useless. Coaching is not underrated when it comes to regular season success. Chemistry and fit is critical for regular season success. Yea coaching a TON to do with the highlight factory hawks not really making much noise. Especially that 2010 team was absolutely stacked with Jamal Crawford, Josh Smith, Al Horford, and Joe Johnson all either at their absolute peaks or close to it, an objectively more talented team individually than the 2015 team, yet they made (bad) history against an Orlando team that had just one star and got handled the very next series. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member JeffS17 Posted May 20, 2021 Premium Member Report Share Posted May 20, 2021 5 hours ago, NBASupes said: Beyond strictly looking at wins and losses, net rating gives a clear picture of team performance. The following infographics show the trajectory of every team in the NBA in terms of how they rank in the category. Atlanta Hawks Boston Celtics Brooklyn Nets Charlotte Hornets Chicago Bulls Cleveland Cavaliers Dallas Mavericks Denver Nuggets Detroit Pistons Golden State Warriors Houston Rockets Indiana Pacers Los Angeles Clippers Los Angeles Lakers Memphis Grizzlies Miami Heat Milwaukee Bucks Minnesota Timberwolves New Orleans Pelicans New York Knicks Oklahoma City Thunder Orlando Magic Philadelphia 76ers Phoenix Suns Portland Trail Blazers Sacramento Kings San Antonio Spurs Toronto Raptors Utah Jazz Washington Wizards Hawks did well with their complete rebuild but wow, some teams did awful with it. This is really cool stuff, I cannot imagine how happy Phoenix fans are right now lol... us and the Knicks are a fitting first round matchup with comparable jumps this season. Lebron effect is clear here looking at the Heat/Cavs graphs 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member JeffS17 Posted May 20, 2021 Premium Member Report Share Posted May 20, 2021 18 minutes ago, NBASupes said: It does and doesn't work. The Jazz are proof you don't have to tank but only one team (Miami) in the east moved up without tanking. Orlando did exactly what Jazz tried to do and failed badly. Boston and Miami is the only team in the East that did not tank but they killed Brooklyn in a deal where they got premium picks, so in reality, they benefited like a tanking team. Miami just did like Utah but did hit home runs in FA with Jimmy Butler. Philly tank was four years which seemed like an eternity but it worked out. In the east, it seems like tanking heavy is the only way or killing someone in a trade which is extremely hard to do now. Spurs anti tank only works with superstars. When you have Duncan and Kawhi Leonard, it worked. Without them, they have been on the outskirts. Hawks tank has worked. My big worry in February was we were on pace to be worse off than the Highlight Factory Hawks which we knew were frauds even then. Both teams had 2nd half success due to Bibby trade and for us, the Nate replacing LP. We finished tied for 4th and they finished 8th seed. Took Boston who was #1 in the NBA to 7. We need to beat NY. Sacramento is proof that small markets who draft poorly can't recovery unless they have an elite front office. Small markets must draft well or hit home runs on trades. Minnesota is proof that you can hit on stars but if you can't build a roster around them or hire a good staff, it's still useless. Coaching is not underrated when it comes to regular season success. Chemistry and fit is critical for regular season success. I think tanking can work but you obviously need a good front office and good scouting. It's a reasonable option for teams that aren't big FA destinations. I think you hit the nail on the head with having superstars though. If you can land 1-2 players that are high value maxes, you can continue to compete with them. If you land players at high value who are not max contracts, they will eventually need to get paid and you lose them or they're no longer good value (even if they're still good players). 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Atlantaholic Posted May 20, 2021 Premium Member Report Share Posted May 20, 2021 30 minutes ago, JeffS17 said: I think tanking can work but you obviously need a good front office and good scouting. It's a reasonable option for teams that aren't big FA destinations. I think you hit the nail on the head with having superstars though. If you can land 1-2 players that are high value maxes, you can continue to compete with them. If you land players at high value who are not max contracts, they will eventually need to get paid and you lose them or they're no longer good value (even if they're still good players). Tanking can work if your lucky and have a good front office. Same is true for retooling. At the end of the day if you are a team like the Hawks that couldn't get a top free agent if the lives of the entire front office depended on it, there aren't really many options if you want a prayer at a championship outside of tanking. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Popular Post AHF Posted May 20, 2021 Moderators Popular Post Report Share Posted May 20, 2021 Tanking obviously fails a lot of teams that try it because it requires good execution and some luck. (Landing the #1 pick when Duncan or LeBron is on the board is very different than when Jayson Tatum is arguably the top guy on the board.) But if you want real proof, here it is: 3 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Popular Post Atlantaholic Posted May 20, 2021 Premium Member Popular Post Report Share Posted May 20, 2021 1 minute ago, AHF said: Tanking obviously fails a lot of teams that try it because it requires good execution and some luck. (Landing the #1 pick when Duncan or LeBron is on the board is very different than when Jayson Tatum is arguably the top guy on the board.) But if you want real proof, here it is: After only 14,000 posts, he admits defeat. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post kg01 Posted May 20, 2021 Popular Post Report Share Posted May 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, AHF said: Tanking obviously fails a lot of teams that try it because it requires good execution and some luck. (Landing the #1 pick when Duncan or LeBron is on the board is very different than when Jayson Tatum is arguably the top guy on the board.) But if you want real proof, here it is: I've been a KB hater for a long time but I give him massive respeck for paying up on his bet. Some others .......... who shall remain nameless (and on whom we may need to start thinking of doing a wellness check ), didn't step up and pay the fee like he did. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted May 20, 2021 Moderators Report Share Posted May 20, 2021 14 minutes ago, kg01 said: I've been a KB hater for a long time but I give him massive respeck for paying up on his bet. Some others .......... who shall remain nameless (and on whom we may need to start thinking of doing a wellness check ), didn't step up and pay the fee like he did. Agree. Props to sturt, benhillboy, and kb for all being good sports and living up to their bets over the last month or so! (I'm sure people know this but kb isn't really on board with tanking. I just have to milk it while I can.) 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Gray Mule Posted May 20, 2021 Popular Post Report Share Posted May 20, 2021 I personally like KB21. I don't always agree with him. He's not afraid to stand up for what he believes and, when proven wrong, he stands up and takes it like an adult. You know something. If we all agreed 100% about everything, there would be nothing to discuss or even talk about. My niece once told me, "There are always three sides to an argument. Your side, my side and the right side." Truth. I try to always be correct. Sometimes I fail badly Thank you, KB21. I look forward to reading your posts. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNorthCydeRises Posted May 20, 2021 Report Share Posted May 20, 2021 2 hours ago, Atlantaholic said: Arguments for why Tanking doesn't work - R.I.P. May 20, 2021 It does? - signed, Sacramento 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kg01 Posted May 20, 2021 Report Share Posted May 20, 2021 1 hour ago, AHF said: (I'm sure people know this but kb isn't really on board with tanking. I just have to milk it while I can.) Sorry I can't believe this. His avatar says different. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted May 20, 2021 Moderators Report Share Posted May 20, 2021 20 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said: It does? - signed, Sacramento Bad management will fail regardless of whether they choose to tank, retool, invest in FA, etc. Why? Because they are bad at what they do and when you make poor decisions in the draft, in trades and in free agency there is no philosophy to team building that can possibly overcome that. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REHawksFan Posted May 20, 2021 Report Share Posted May 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, AHF said: Bad management will fail regardless of whether they choose to tank, retool, invest in FA, etc. Why? Because they are bad at what they do and when you make poor decisions in the draft, in trades and in free agency there is no philosophy to team building that can possibly overcome that. The greatest system or philosophy in the world will fail if not executed properly. That's why this whole debate (in which I also participated) was so pointless. Tanking CAN work. Retooling CAN work. It's all about the execution. If you make the right draft picks and complement them with the right FA signings at the right time, tanking works. If you draft poorly, it'll never work. But the same applies to FA signing and trades. The strategy itself is and always was far less important than the execution of said strategy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benhillboy Posted May 20, 2021 Report Share Posted May 20, 2021 (edited) I respect the Heat, Pacers, Blazers, and Spurs for consistently putting out a watchable product for their fans. Business sense aside I just can’t see how you sleep at night knowingly putting out one that isn’t. Just spitballing but I’m guessing front offices with a strong presence of prideful former players don’t take the bottoming out route. I think if you truly have good, serious people in ownership, management/ scouting, and coaching it’ll all fall into place sooner than later in spite of hurdles in free agency and the talent pool of the draft. Edited May 20, 2021 by benhillboy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Popular Post JayBirdHawk Posted May 20, 2021 Premium Member Popular Post Report Share Posted May 20, 2021 6 minutes ago, benhillboy said: I respect the Heat, Pacers, Blazers, and Spurs for consistently putting out a watchable product for their fans. Business sense aside I just can’t see how you sleep at night knowingly putting out one that isn’t. Just spitballing but I’m guessing front offices with a strong presence of prideful former players don’t take the bottoming out route. I think if you truly have good, serious people in ownership, management, and coaching it’ll all fall into place sooner than later in spite of hurdles in free agency and the talent pool of the draft. I think we sometimes forget the lean years for some of these franchises and how some of these teams got their star players, each of these teams have been in the lottery and selected top #10 draft picks. What they were able to do is build adequately around those high draft picks in a short time span to get back to competitive basketball and not be the Kings, Minny and the Suns. Take the Blazers for example: Lillard #6 pick, McCollum #10 pick in back to back years Blazers won 28 and 33 games in those years. Then before them in was LaMarcus Aldrige at #2 and Brandon Roy at #6, Blazers won 27,21,32 games. Spurs are an outlier, they picked a real Hall of Famer that lasted 20 plus years and he allowed himself to be coached and molded and adjusted his game to grow with the NBA changing landscape. Spurs are not in the playoffs after a 20 year run. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bird_dirt Posted May 21, 2021 Report Share Posted May 21, 2021 1) Man, I kinda feel bad for Pistons fans. Imagine going through this stretch of a once storied franchise. 2) Lakers look like a dinosaur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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