Who is John Collins under Nate McMillan???

[JTB]

As we all know JC is up for his extension /new contract whatever but all signs at least publicly from Schlenk himself is pointing towards resigning Collins.

But I don’t want to get in the contract numbers there’s many other threads for that. I want to pin point some interesting things to me that I heard from both Ressler and Schlenk more importantly Schlenk.

 

Schlenk stated the following:

“I told John yesterday that I was extremely proud of the way he played this year. He made a decision to go to restricted free agency last fall. A lot of times, that can impact a player. I think what you saw from John, he wasn’t playing for his numbers. He was out there playing for the team to win. A lot of cases when guys are going into free agency, you can see the opposite. We didn’t see that at all in John this year. I think that speaks very highly of his character and what he’s about. He’s about being on a winning basketball team. I don’t have anything negative to say about John Collins.”

 

Resseler made a similar comment about JC changing his game up not playing for his numbers.

 

so here’s what I want to know as a fan…based on that comment it sounds like Schlenk knows JC can do even more at least to him especially offensively. But JC was told not to look for his own game , own shot, own whatever this season sounds like  and basically following team orders….us as fans at least most of us see it a little differently. We like JC no doubt but if he’s truly the 2nd best player on the team when we have situations like an injury to Trae we expect Collins to go out and be the team leading scorer and undoubtedly the best hawk on the floor if he’s considered the second best player and many in the media seems to widely consider he’s the second best player on the team….I’m different I believe it’s Hunter but that’s not for this thread.

 

ALL of that brings me to my leading question….who is John Collins under McMillan? I don’t think we truly know the answer to this so I’m not expecting real logical answers being that McMillan hasn’t fully placed his offensive or defensive  system here yet and will not  do so until this summer.

but it’s interesting conversation when it comes to JC because while many of us think JC is limited…Schlenk at least publicly seems to think he has a lot more he can bring OR this could just be a smoke screen from Schlenk. Who knows???

[sillent]

JC was arguably our best player until year 2 of Trae. People have short memories nowadays but he was definitely holding back. In my opinion for exactly the reasons Ressler discussed.

Yes he and true he wants a good contract but the truth also is he really wants to stay on the team long term. As much as we would've liked JC to turn it up especially during the playoffs it would draw alot of attention to teams trying to buy him away. 

Plus we are creatures of habit and he played mediocre (not to his best capabilities) all through out the season for the good of the team and to stay with us and a breakout performance would've changed the whole narrative and put him out of our price range.

Teams looking to build don't want to pay high for a "mediocre" JC but they do understand his value and that he wants near a max. Unless you're a team that has a Trae Young type player it wouldn't be worth it in their eye's.

Now if we showcased John like we did against the Heat in Lloyd's last game 

Than there is no doubt John gets a max contract and more than likely is no longer on the team.

[RedDawg#8]

I think John has shown us through his 1st 4 years the kind of talent and skillset he has. 

How Nate uses him and all of our pieces when healthy is another story. He got a lot more post touches under Nate with Dre out for example. Was it because of Nate or because of Dre? Who knows.

To your point about him not stepping up without Trae in the lineup, well, 90% of what John does well involves having a reliable playmaker on the court to get him shots in the right places because he cannot get his own.

Elite Pick and Roll, Pick and Pop- Needs someone who excels running the pick and roll and can find John consistently

Can hit the open 3 from every spot- Key word is open. Needs the defense to collapse on another threat

Can post up mismatches and win, Mid range face up jumper is money- Needs reliable entry passes to get him the rock, which we have more of with Bogi and Kev now.

Wins on the offensive glass- All hustle, all him

Can give you 2-3 live dribbles in the half court to get to his spots. This part is on him to be more aggressive and demand the ball. He may not be able to break down an entire defense, but he can do a little work when he gets the ball. Also, improving his vision would allow him to punish teams that are aggressively guarding him by finding cutters.

 

[Diesel]

Overall, 

I think that JC plays well in our system because Trae is a great playmaker.   RedDawg hit the nail on the things that JC does on an elite level.  With the exception of post up.   I think his post up normally end up as face ups because he passes out and repositions on smaller guys... There's nothing wrong with that, right Gallo (Actually Gallo repivots)?  

I think what makes JC not a max player or not even close is that:

1.  He can not create for himself. 

2.  Doesn't make winning passes. 

However, those are things that Nate will not ask him to do. 

In Nate's offense, he is a finisher.   He gets to certain spots on the floor and if his number is called, he's expected to score from there.   When we resort to have Dunn on the floor with JC... You pretty much know that JC is going to get most of his scoring from putbacks.   Lou also to an extent.   JC has a very good chemistry with Trae.   Almost Stockton to Malone like.  That's the reason why I would opt to keep him. 

 

[RedDawg#8]

8 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Overall, 

I think that JC plays well in our system because Trae is a great playmaker.   RedDawg hit the nail on the things that JC does on an elite level.  With the exception of post up.   I think his post up normally end up as face ups because he passes out and repositions on smaller guys... There's nothing wrong with that, right Gallo (Actually Gallo repivots)?  

 

 

100 % they do. Good catch/ correction

[Wurider05]

Come on fellas. When Trae was out in the ECF John didn't step up at all. he didn't drop 30 and grab 15. He put up good numbers when we were on a bad team. Even when he was playing well I had him behind Hunter and Trae. I would live to keep him but he is no where near a max player. Too many nights where he was suppose to be the best player on the floor but he wasn't. 

[Diesel]

8 minutes ago, Wurider05 said:

Come on fellas. When Trae was out in the ECF John didn't step up at all. he didn't drop 30 and grab 15. He put up good numbers when we were on a bad team. Even when he was playing well I had him behind Hunter and Trae. I would live to keep him but he is no where near a max player. Too many nights where he was suppose to be the best player on the floor but he wasn't. 

Don't worry Wu...  

Other GMs were watching too and even the desperate ones will not offer the max because they would be afraid that we would not match.   JC is a strong player but he requires a PG good enough to find him in his spots.   That's the problem when Lou comes in.  Lou is not really much of a floor general.   He's a guy who can keep his dribble... swing the ball... and score when they allow him to go left.  He could come in for Bogi just as easily as he comes in for Trae because his ball handling is what is expected from Bogi.    Our offense requires a floor general.   It makes it hard for us to find a BU PG...  That's why as we draft, we have to be intentional with picking a Sherman Douglas type.  A Jason Kidd like guy.   As far as BUs... Maybe Rose if he would leave Thibbs.

However, because of that fact, teams won't offer JC a Max Contract.   Unless they have a floor general.   A threat may be Dallas but they are so confused right now I doubt that they do. 

 

[NBASupes]

I covered it in the pod

Elite movement specialist

Elite at slipping screens

Elite PnR finisher/roll/pop

Stretch big, can shoot open shots at a high clip

Good awareness on both ends

Reasonable rim protector

Good team defender

Tremendous energy and effort guy who communicates exceptionally well. 

Focused

Great teammate

[MarylandHawk]

1 hour ago, Wurider05 said:

Come on fellas. When Trae was out in the ECF John didn't step up at all. he didn't drop 30 and grab 15. He put up good numbers when we were on a bad team. Even when he was playing well I had him behind Hunter and Trae. I would live to keep him but he is no where near a max player. Too many nights where he was suppose to be the best player on the floor but he wasn't. 

This couldn’t be further from the truth. Collins has always been the most efficient guy on the team even before this season. When ever John has been on the floor with starter caliber guys, we are a winning team. If John doesn’t get suspended for 25 games we likely would have made the playoffs then. When we got Clint and Gallo, he sacrificed minutes, rebounds and pick and roll. If you equate big numbers to big contract, I understand your point, but if you are talking efficiency and team work John is elite. Aside from all of that, his work ethic, personality and intangibles are off the chart.  You won’t find guys like that laying around. Oh and he wants to be here too?  

[Wurider05]

1 hour ago, MarylandHawk said:

If you equate big numbers to big contract, I understand your point, but if you are talking efficiency and team work John is elite.

This is what I am referring too the numbers. You don't get paid because you might can do something but rather for actually doing something. 

[MarylandHawk]

19 hours ago, Wurider05 said:

This is what I am referring too the numbers. You don't get paid because you might can do something but rather for actually doing something. 

Understood but if you pay somebody after they prove it to you with numbers it is usually too late.  The real question is does he need to have ridiculous numbers in order for us to be a championship team?  John had already showed he can be a 20 10 guy but that wasn’t what was needed this year for us to win. You have to pay market value for the guy and there is nobody better on the market right now that does what he does. 

[hylndr11]

Fine as long as we aren't giving anything of value up to get him, there is some odd.rationalizimg going in this thread, I really can't tell if we're saying john was playing a part and wasn't trying on purpose or if we should sign him but he's really reached his ceiling and there's nobody else.  It's confusing, so I hope we're not saying john was still taking a back seat when we were losing to the bucks.  Saying that.and saying we wouldn't have gotten there without him are two different things, I saw a crazy thread last week that.made me stay off the board for a week about getting rid of the the euros and someone else to keep john.  We can cherry pick stats to prove any point but some of this is nuts

Edited July 12, 2021 by hylndr11

[Gray Mule]

An old saying I remember from my youth:

"Figures don't lie but liars can figure!"

You can prove almost anything with figures if you try hard enough.  And, to be scientific about anything is a sure bet that you are correct.  A great example:  Science has proven that it is impossible for a bumblebee to fly.  They are too big for their tiny wings.  So, the next time you see one in flight, remember, that's impossible.

[AHF]

Just now, Gray Mule said:

An old saying I remember from my youth:

"Figures don't lie but liars can figure!"

You can prove almost anything with figures if you try hard enough.  And, to be scientific about anything is a sure bet that you are correct.  A great example:  Science has proven that it is impossible for a bumblebee to fly.  They are too big for their tiny wings.  So, the next time you see one in flight, remember, that's impossible.

https://www.businessinsider.com/bees-cant-fly-scientifically-incorrect-2017-12

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/08/bumblebee-flight-does-not-violate-the-laws-of-physics/

https://www.livescience.com/33075-how-bees-fly.html

 

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

John Collins has it all man... Well-rounded player who's team first.  Guys like him are few and far between. He's worth the near max, but we need to trade Gallo for picks for it to make sense and cents. Having $50 mil tied up in the PF spot isn't good finance.