Biggest Disappointment in Hawks Franchise History?

[pimp]

1.Trading Nique while we were the #1 seed , in a year where the east was wide open because Jordan retired. Just dumb. 

i was never really disappointed in Marvin, Shelden Dion Glover and Manning because i never believed in them anyway.

[JayBirdHawk]

53 minutes ago, sturt said:

Whoa.

Between this and the "create the worst all-time Hawks team" thread, seems we've probably illuminated the masochists among us. Yes? No?

Nah...just the doldrums of the offseason.

4 minutes ago, pimp said:

1.Trading Nique while we were the #1 seed , in a year where the east was wide open because Jordan retired. Just dumb. 

i was never really disappointed in Marvin, Shelden Dion Glover and Manning because i never believed in them anyway.

I was/am just dissapointed we selected them. 

[sturt]

23 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

doldrums

 

Don't understand the term. What foreign language should I tell Google Translate to use?

 

Wait.

 

Maybe if I dig back in the Hawksquawk archives...

 

Welllllllllllll... whaddayaknow... looks like that word was used quite a bit round these parts if you go all the way back to the year 2020. But that's a distant memory, of course, for many of us.

 

Not all of us, though. Not the masochists.

[niremetal]

I'll add one--Chris Crawford's injuries. I actually really loved his game--surprisingly great athlete with a nice stroke and good feel on both ends of the floor. In both '99, he was fire down the stretch to help lift the team to home court in the first round and then was the only guy who showed up for Game 1 against the Knicks in the semis. He actually looked like possibly the team's best draft pick since Kevin Willis. Then he got hurt in Game 2 and was perpetually hurt for the next 4 seasons. Finally got fully healthy again in the 2003-04 season and started to look like the guy I thought he could be. After the break, he averaged 19/5 and finally developed a deep ball, shooting 40% from 3)...only to blow out his knee and see his career end for good.

I know it seems like a small thing to be disappointed in, but I just felt so bad for that guy.

Edited September 3, 2021 by niremetal

[bird_dirt]

7 hours ago, AHF said:

Maybe but he didn't impress during his first two healthy seasons so I feel like that was far from guaranteed.  (His second season he averaged 8.4 points on sub-40% fg% and more turnovers than assists and that was a step up from his rookie year).  

I'll say that none of these are even a disappointment for me.  Robinson and Wallace were parts of trades that ended up working out wonderfully for Atlanta.  Childress gave you what were pretty normal contributions from a mid to late lottery pick (better than several of the guys picked ahead of him did on their rookie contracts) so while he wasn't my top choice and clearly isn't close to the right pick with 20/20 hindsight, I can't call him out as a big deal when our draft history is littered with flops.  Doc is a huge success story for me - doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes on the floor but he way outperformed his draft position and was a large and important part of some of the best Atlanta teams in our history.  Walker doesn't qualify because expectations were low.  We got him as a transitional piece while we were tanking and he put up almost 20 and 10.  Roy Marble is just a matter of low expectations on my part.  Can't be disappointed when you expect him to suck and he sucks.

These are all great choices based either on the bad faith actions that hurt the team and/or based on the high expectations that fell woefully short in reality.  I have to add one big one to the list:

The Atlanta Spirit (Specifically the Attempted Coups) - This ownership group was an absolute cluster-****. 

Belkin Coup Attempt - Steve Belkin tried to block the acquisition of Joe Johnson and sued to prevent the team from being able to spend money in FA.  Worse, he tried a hostile takeover of the ownership group which he inevitably lost since he was one of 9 owners and only controlled 1/3 share of the Hawks.  (His theory was that since he was appointed governor that he had ultimate authority despite not having the votes to actually authorize decisions.)  This dragged out affecting multiple seasons and making the team a laughing stock as well as competitively tying our hands.  When Belkin inevitably lost (with a ruling of "duh - you own 1/3 of the team and only have 1 vote out of 3 and can't override the other 2 votes"), it resulted in Belkin being bought out. 

Gearon Coup Attempt - After Belkin was gone, Michael Gearon Jr. served as the governor and decision-maker for basketball decisions and the other owners eventually tired of his interference and decided to hire an independent GM and to push Gearon out of an authority position.  Levenson hired Ferry and Ferry led the team to its most successful season to date, capturing the #1 overall seed, posting records for consecutive wins, etc. and turning the corner into a legit contender (or perhaps a legit contender if our wings don't get cleaned out by racist police and Dirtydova).  In response, Gearon attempted a hostile takeover of the team. 

When he was pushed out as governor by the other owners in favor of Levenson who removed him from a decision-making basketball role and brought in Ferry, Gearon secretly taped team meetings until he found something to publicly release to try to ruin Levenson and Ferry and force the owners to give him back control of the team.  (Gearon didn't object to what was said and leaked it so it could be presented in the most outrageous light possible especially considering that Ferry was reading someone else's comments off of a sheet and was recommending that the team invest big dollars in Luol Deng when he did it.  Ferry was recommending the Hawks offer the exact contract that Deng ultimately signed.)  Gearon inevitably failed to regain the control he wanted which resulted in the sale of the team but only after Gearon's handpicked BudCox GM era took the team from the heights that Ferry reached to garbage status by the time BudCox were done.

As an aside, the ASG also trashed and threw away the Thrashers.  Belking and Gearon were happy to trash and undermine the actual team in a power struggle to elevate themselves from mere minority owners to the controlling decision-makers despite their minority status.  The team and its reputation actively suffered in both cases by design of these selfish people.  I am pretty sure this is unprecedented in American sports and it happened twice with these guys.

Yeah, pretty much this. 

After reading the OP, I figured my list would basically be

1. Atlanta Spirit Group 

2. Pete Babcock

That's really all you need.

[bleachkit]

11 hours ago, Diesel said:

I think I know the answer to this but I will still put out some options:

1.  Rumeal Robinson.

2.  Demarr Johnson.

3.  Rasheed Wallace - with us for one day. 

4.  Roy Marble - The Next Jordan. 

5.  Danny Manning. 

6.  Dwight Howard.  

7.  Josh Childress. 

8.  Dion  "King of the Summer Leagues" Glover. 

9.  Big Dog.... 

10.  Big Dog, Ratliff, and Kukoc = The guarantee. 

11.  Coach Bud as GM.

12.   1 night with Tom Izzo as coach!

13.  Doc Rivers... Pass the damn ball to Dominique!!!

14.  Matthew Delvadova - "Sweep the Leg"

15. NY Police "Dirty Cops" that injured Thabo Sefalosha. 

16.  Danny Ferry's racist comments. 

17.  Antoine Walker. 

18.   Marvin Williams being drafted 2nd overall. 

19.   Shelden.  - The Landlord. 

20.  Keeping Al Henderson.

 

I think that's a good start.  What do you think Squawk??

 

For number 16, it should be described as comments read of a scouting report taken out of context and subsequently released by a disgruntled minority owner attempting to sabotage the organization

[Atlantaholic]

9 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

Stop it.

Just made me saddest.

Best case for Demarr was something like Marvin Williams even if he hadn't gotten injured. He had athleticism but everything about his game from his shot from his dribbles were so unorthodox and janky, he reminded me a lot of Jonathan Bender. 

[Atlantaholic]

3 hours ago, niremetal said:

I'll add one--Chris Crawford's injuries. I actually really loved his game--surprisingly great athlete with a nice stroke and good feel on both ends of the floor. In both '99, he was fire down the stretch to help lift the team to home court in the first round and then was the only guy who showed up for Game 1 against the Knicks in the semis. He actually looked like possibly the team's best draft pick since Kevin Willis. Then he got hurt in Game 2 and was perpetually hurt for the next 4 seasons. Finally got fully healthy again in the 2003-04 season and started to look like the guy I thought he could be. After the break, he averaged 19/5 and finally developed a deep ball, shooting 40% from 3)...only to blow out his knee and see his career end for good.

I know it seems like a small thing to be disappointed in, but I just felt so bad for that guy.

Yea, few remember how awesome he was that 2003 season.

[Gray Mule]

Omari Spellman:  Played here one year.  Talented.  Could score.  Had no self control over his weight.  Already over weight, he gained a lot of fat in the off season.  Came in completely out of shape.  He would never be a great all star but he had talent.

Where is he now?  Big if.  If he could somehow get his weight problem under control, he's still young enough to make it back.  It's just so sad to lose what might have been.

[Spud2nique]

5 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

Best case for Demarr was something like Marvin Williams even if he hadn't gotten injured. He had athleticism but everything about his game from his shot from his dribbles were so unorthodox and janky, he reminded me a lot of Jonathan Bender. 

Ya, he was ahead of his time as far as have the prototype lean 3 and D, but he was way too inconsistent and didn’t even want the spotlight whatsoever, a very passive player.

[NBASupes]

14 hours ago, AHF said:

Maybe but he didn't impress during his first two healthy seasons so I feel like that was far from guaranteed.  (His second season he averaged 8.4 points on sub-40% fg% and more turnovers than assists and that was a step up from his rookie year).  

I'll say that none of these are even a disappointment for me.  Robinson and Wallace were parts of trades that ended up working out wonderfully for Atlanta.  Childress gave you what were pretty normal contributions from a mid to late lottery pick (better than several of the guys picked ahead of him did on their rookie contracts) so while he wasn't my top choice and clearly isn't close to the right pick with 20/20 hindsight, I can't call him out as a big deal when our draft history is littered with flops.  Doc is a huge success story for me - doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes on the floor but he way outperformed his draft position and was a large and important part of some of the best Atlanta teams in our history.  Walker doesn't qualify because expectations were low.  We got him as a transitional piece while we were tanking and he put up almost 20 and 10.  Roy Marble is just a matter of low expectations on my part.  Can't be disappointed when you expect him to suck and he sucks.

These are all great choices based either on the bad faith actions that hurt the team and/or based on the high expectations that fell woefully short in reality.  I have to add one big one to the list:

The Atlanta Spirit (Specifically the Attempted Coups) - This ownership group was an absolute cluster-****. 

Belkin Coup Attempt - Steve Belkin tried to block the acquisition of Joe Johnson and sued to prevent the team from being able to spend money in FA.  Worse, he tried a hostile takeover of the ownership group which he inevitably lost since he was one of 9 owners and only controlled 1/3 share of the Hawks.  (His theory was that since he was appointed governor that he had ultimate authority despite not having the votes to actually authorize decisions.)  This dragged out affecting multiple seasons and making the team a laughing stock as well as competitively tying our hands.  When Belkin inevitably lost (with a ruling of "duh - you own 1/3 of the team and only have 1 vote out of 3 and can't override the other 2 votes"), it resulted in Belkin being bought out. 

Gearon Coup Attempt - After Belkin was gone, Michael Gearon Jr. served as the governor and decision-maker for basketball decisions and the other owners eventually tired of his interference and decided to hire an independent GM and to push Gearon out of an authority position.  Levenson hired Ferry and Ferry led the team to its most successful season to date, capturing the #1 overall seed, posting records for consecutive wins, etc. and turning the corner into a legit contender (or perhaps a legit contender if our wings don't get cleaned out by racist police and Dirtydova).  In response, Gearon attempted a hostile takeover of the team. 

When he was pushed out as governor by the other owners in favor of Levenson who removed him from a decision-making basketball role and brought in Ferry, Gearon secretly taped team meetings until he found something to publicly release to try to ruin Levenson and Ferry and force the owners to give him back control of the team.  (Gearon didn't object to what was said and leaked it so it could be presented in the most outrageous light possible especially considering that Ferry was reading someone else's comments off of a sheet and was recommending that the team invest big dollars in Luol Deng when he did it.  Ferry was recommending the Hawks offer the exact contract that Deng ultimately signed.)  Gearon inevitably failed to regain the control he wanted which resulted in the sale of the team but only after Gearon's handpicked BudCox GM era took the team from the heights that Ferry reached to garbage status by the time BudCox were done.

As an aside, the ASG also trashed and threw away the Thrashers.  Belking and Gearon were happy to trash and undermine the actual team in a power struggle to elevate themselves from mere minority owners to the controlling decision-makers despite their minority status.  The team and its reputation actively suffered in both cases by design of these selfish people.  I am pretty sure this is unprecedented in American sports and it happened twice with these guys.

I always loved DerMarr talent and felt him, Bender, was similar to Jermaine O'Neal and Gerald Wallace. Raw pure talent but they needed to play consistent and really put in work to be stars as O'Neal and Wallace did. 

I agree with everything you wrote about Diesel's list. I didn't see too many disappointments. I never liked Marvin like that and I always thought we should have drafted Deron or Chris over him but I didn't think he was a disappointment. I mean, he's like Jaren Jackson Jr. 

ASG was more than a disappointment. They were the worst ownership group in sport's history 

[Spud2nique]

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

They were the worst ownership group in sport's history 

My lions are up there too.  

[NBASupes]

5 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

Best case for Demarr was something like Marvin Williams even if he hadn't gotten injured. He had athleticism but everything about his game from his shot from his dribbles were so unorthodox and janky, he reminded me a lot of Jonathan Bender. 

I loved Jonathan Bender as well. He was a much better offensive talent just based on his ability to shoot and shoot off the dribble. If anyone today reminds me of Johnson, its Trey Murphy III. Kid just drafted out of Virginia.

Marvin can't shoot off the dribble and his dribble drive is the most uncoordinated shit I've seen in my life along with his son, JJJ.

Quote

“Of all the guys I’ve ever seen in this league, in 20-plus years, in terms of basketball ability he’s in the top 1 or 2 percent,” said Dallas Mavericks Coach Rick Carlisle.

https://ballislife.com/jonathan-bender/

As I've said, Bender, Johnson, Wallace, and O'Neal was in the same tier of talent but O'Neal and Wallace reached their potential and Bender and Johnson had injuries.

Edited September 4, 2021 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

20 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Ya, he was ahead of his time as far as have the prototype lean 3 and D, but he was way too inconsistent and didn’t even want the spotlight whatsoever, a very passive player.

He had a lot more offensive talent than Marvin had. Don't let know one say his ass is Marvin. Marvin had an elite frame out of college. His offensive potential was always limited. Marvin benefited from age when in reality, he was limited from the offset offensively.

Marvin was no different than that 23 year old prospect potential wise. 

Edited September 4, 2021 by NBASupes

[bleachkit]

10 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

He had a lot more offensive talent than Marvin had. Don't let know one say his ass is Marvin. Marvin had an elite frame out of college. His offensive potential was always limited. Marvin benefited from age when in reality, he was limited from the offset offensively.

Marvin was no different than that 23 year old prospect potential wise. 

I just never understood Marvin's appeal as an elite prospect. Watching him at North Carolina, he had no creativity to his game, and not much of a handle either. I guess they thought he could become an elite shooter. How else was he going to become a big time scorer in the NBA? I think scouting has improved in the last 20 years, I doubt he would go #2 nowadays. 

[Spud2nique]

25 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

He had a lot more offensive talent than Marvin had. Don't let know one say his ass is Marvin. Marvin had an elite frame out of college. His offensive potential was always limited. Marvin benefited from age when in reality, he was limited from the offset offensively.

Marvin was no different than that 23 year old prospect potential wise. 

Man, that’s a tough one for me. I’d rather take Marvin. As bad and as weak as he was with his duck butt, at least he kept trying and going through the grind of nothing else which is probably why he carved out a nice little journeyman career but I can’t say the same for Dermarr. 
 

Both we disappointments but Johnson a bigger one that Marv for me. Then again, Marv was the 2nd overall pick in his draft and DJ was #6. I remember I wanted Mike Miller from Florida but he went one pick before to the Magic.

[bird_dirt]

4 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

Man, that’s a tough one for me. I’d rather take Marvin. As bad and as weak as he was with his duck butt, at least he kept trying and going through the grind of nothing else which is probably why he carved out a nice little journeyman career but I can’t say the same for Dermarr. 
 

Both we disappointments but Johnson a bigger one that Marv for me. Then again, Marv was the 2nd overall pick in his draft and DJ was #6. I remember I wanted Mike Miller from Florida but he went one pick before to the Magic.

DeMarr broke his freaking neck in an accident. He was out of the league. Can't blame him for not being able to sustain a career. I know he tried coming back, but he couldn't ever make it all the way back.

It's odd, it doesn't seem like it was that far off from Dany Heatly's car accident that (mentally) destroyed his career, too.

I always liked DeMarr. He probably wasn't ever going to be a starter for a good team, but he was money from the corner 3.

[Atlantaholic]

1 hour ago, bird_dirt said:

DeMarr broke his freaking neck in an accident. He was out of the league. Can't blame him for not being able to sustain a career. I know he tried coming back, but he couldn't ever make it all the way back.

It's odd, it doesn't seem like it was that far off from Dany Heatly's car accident that (mentally) destroyed his career, too.

I always liked DeMarr. He probably wasn't ever going to be a starter for a good team, but he was money from the corner 3.

My best memory of DerMarr is when I went to a Hawks vs Miami game at Miamie while I was vacationing with my family at AA arena. I think it was the very first play of the game he pulled of a nasty as hell crossover and monster dunk I thought damn this kid may actually become good. To his credit he had shown signs of development from year 1 to year 2 but yea, the injury pretty much put an end to his career. Not sure he would have developed beyond a decent player, as it stands he's just another in the long list of underwhelming and forgetable players that came out of the infamous 2000 draft. 

[NBASupes]

7 hours ago, bleachkit said:

I just never understood Marvin's appeal as an elite prospect. Watching him at North Carolina, he had no creativity to his game, and not much of a handle either. I guess they thought he could become an elite shooter. How else was he going to become a big time scorer in the NBA? I think scouting has improved in the last 20 years, I doubt he would go #2 nowadays. 

His age and elite frame made people think his ceiling is much higher than it was. Basically Jaren Jackson Jr shit. He was limited out of HS. He didn't have the needed level of coordination to succeed in the NBA 

[RedDawg#8]

12 hours ago, bleachkit said:

I just never understood Marvin's appeal as an elite prospect. Watching him at North Carolina, he had no creativity to his game, and not much of a handle either. I guess they thought he could become an elite shooter. How else was he going to become a big time scorer in the NBA? I think scouting has improved in the last 20 years, I doubt he would go #2 nowadays. 

Idk man, you still get your Anthony Bennets/Andrew Wiggins in the last few years, and your Luka and Trae's being drafted behind a Bagley. Guys like Alex Len, Dante Exum, Mario Hezonjia, Dragan Bender, Kris Dunn, etc... were all top 5 picks.

These GM's still find ways to screw things up