Welcome to the Hawks, Frank Kaminsky

[marco102]

17 minutes ago, sturt said:

Breaking news:

AJC beat writer has confirmed Kaminsky's contract is guaranteed.

 

Don't care what anyone says... it is insane to guarantee money to a player with 4 consecutive years of significant injury history that prevented him from playing.

It's more insane when you're toeing the luxury tax line to begin with, and your front office otherwise has made not one but two deals in the off-season that were about the money.

 

It's not going to be the tipping point issue in winning a trophy. I just don't like irrational decisions as a rule.

Seems like you still need to acknowledge that @JayBirdHawk was correct all along.  

[sturt]

1 minute ago, marco102 said:

Seems like you still need to acknowledge that @JayBirdHawk was correct all along.  

 

Sure. Happy to give her credit for citing Spotrac.

Spotrac has back peddled before, tho. I wasn't wrong to be hesitant to believe Spotrac, particularly in light of zero Hawks beat writers reporting anything. I'll rely on them 100% of the time in comparison.

 

[marco102]

1 minute ago, sturt said:

 

Sure. Happy to give her credit for citing Spotrac.

Spotrac has back peddled before, tho. I wasn't wrong to be hesitant to believe Spotrac, particularly in light of zero Hawks beat writers reporting anything. I'll rely on them 100% of the time in comparison.

 

Citing Spotrac AND being correct about the guaranteed portion which was the initial debate. 

[sturt]

4 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Citing Spotrac AND being correct about the guaranteed portion which was the initial debate. 

I'm just now learning there was a "debate."

Look, my friend, she was content with what Spotrac said.

I was not.

Both positions are fine from my perspective. (I'd like to think from hers as well, but it doesn't really matter.)

End of story.

[kg01]

21 minutes ago, sturt said:

I'm being misinterpreted.

I'm not mad that they acquired Kaminsky. A healthy Kaminsky could be useful.

I'm mad that Kaminsky has a guaranteed roster slot.

I think you must have read over this part, kg...

I do want Favors, but he's only a consolation prize at this point... Micic is who I wanted.

Fortunately, that consolation prize is still on the table.

Yeah I read you right.  I'm just chain-yankin'.  

[thecampster]

When healthy and producing at his expected level, Kaminsky is a $10 million/year player. You're getting him for a $1.79 million cap hit.  I'm not sure what the big fuss is over.

[marco102]

1 minute ago, thecampster said:

When healthy and producing at his expected level, Kaminsky is a $10 million/year player. You're getting him for a $1.79 million cap hit.  I'm not sure what the big fuss is over.

There should be none really. I like the signing. 

[marco102]

On 7/9/2022 at 2:17 PM, sturt said:

If his contract is guaranteed, I'll admit I was wrong.

If his contract is not guaranteed, I'll admit I was right.

I have yet to see your admission of being wrong. 

On 7/9/2022 at 10:54 PM, JayBirdHawk said:

Looks like his contract is fully guaranteed (per Spotrac)

Frank Kaminsky signed a 1 year / $2,463,490 contract with the Atlanta Hawks, including $2,463,490 guaranteed, and an annual average salary of $2,463,490. In 2022-23, Kaminsky will earn a base salary of $2,463,490, while carrying a cap hit of $1,836,090 and a dead cap value of $1,836,090.

 

On 7/9/2022 at 10:58 PM, sturt said:

 

 

(Zooming out and just thinking objectively, it would be pretty foolish to guarantee a player with 4 years of significant injury history. Not saying it won't happen, but it flies in the face of logic.)

 

On 7/9/2022 at 11:05 PM, JayBirdHawk said:

The $2.4 is the vet which is guaranteed. The $1.8 is just the cap hit.

 

On 7/9/2022 at 11:08 PM, sturt said:

I think we're talking past each other, Jay. I'm suggesting that there is no confirmation of anything. Spotrac's only going off of the same chart you've referenced here. That would explain why it's in purple, ie, "estimated."

 

On 7/9/2022 at 11:25 PM, JayBirdHawk said:

Spotrac has been good at listing the guaranteed portions of player salaries in their descriptions.

 

On 7/12/2022 at 8:24 PM, JayBirdHawk said:

Can we put this to bed now? 

 

There was a debate initially if the salary was guaranteed.  Jaybird provided you the initial estimate of the guaranteed portion and you pushed back saying it wasn't confirmed. 

She then provided evidence Spotrac was in fact correct about the guaranteed portion and then there was still no acknowledgment of her using a source that correctly gave the guaranteed portion. 

Also, how often has Spotrac been incorrect? 

We need to set a culture of accountability around here and acknowledge when we were a little off base in our initial postings and when other posters were correct.

Edited July 24, 2022 by marco102

[sturt]

1 hour ago, marco102 said:

We need to set a culture of accountability around here and acknowledge when we were a little off base in our initial postings and when other posters were correct.

Let's start here.

Couldn't agree more.

You'll notice, I came here to affirm the new information that Kaminsky's contract is fully guaranteed. Voluntarily. No one put a water pistol to my head.

 

1 hour ago, marco102 said:

There was a debate initially if the salary was guaranteed.

No, there was a debate whether the salary could be assumed to be guaranteed or not.

No one claimed to have primary source information because there was no primary source information to be had.

 

1 hour ago, marco102 said:

She then provided evidence Spotrac was in fact correct about the guaranteed portion and then there was still no acknowledgment of her using a source that correctly gave the guaranteed portion. 

Nope. And in the interest of the lead quote here, you need to walk that back, my friend.

That didn't happen. There was never any "evidence Spotrac was in fact correct." That was, in fact, the entire reason for doubting Spotrac--no one else closer to the Hawks confirmed it.

Spotrac, as we all know I'm sure, isn't itself ordinarily a generator of primary source information. The only "reporter" of any sort associated with Spotrac is Keith Smith. I can assure you that I not only monitored Keith Smith's Twitter feed, but I asked him on two occasions to affirm Kaminsky's contract status. He did not report anything nor did he respond to the inquiries.

I will always put my trust in the local beat writers with actual sources inside the front office.

I don't feel any need to apologize for that. Sue me.

 

1 hour ago, marco102 said:

Also, how often has Spotrac been incorrect? 

You want me to provide a statistic that I cannot provide. I wouldn't pretend to know, and I'm not the kind of person to make something up.

To the seeming point of your question, I would agree it's not typical. It's also, though, not at all typical that there is no primary-sourced reporter who hasn't already, ahead of Spotrac, reported the intel.

I can legitimately say though that I recall Spotrac correcting information.

 

My last word.

JayBird turned out to be right to assume Spotrac was accurate.

I turned out to be wrong to decline to assume Spotrac was accurate.

But, contrary to the seeming premise of your drawing this out as-if some major debate... that doesn't make her personal rule for when she assumes something to be accurate superior to my personal rule.

My reasons for holding that personal rule are valid and reasonable.

Did Spotrac themselves luck out, having assumed it was guaranteed, and it turned out to be correct after all? Or did they have some source that none of us would know about? Again, if I can't pretend to know, I'm not going to pretend to know.

Congrats to them, though, they got this one right.

 

[sturt]

1 hour ago, thecampster said:

When healthy and producing at his expected level, Kaminsky is a $10 million/year player. You're getting him for a $1.79 million cap hit.  I'm not sure what the big fuss is over.

 

If I believed Kaminsky was a $10m/yr player, I'd agree.

Honest to God, my jaw dropped.

We do not even barely agree that Kaminsky is a $10m/yr player.

He's a decent player who seemingly was on the rise when he once again got bitten by injury after just 9 games... terrible timing, because Ayton's having been injured was giving him some minutes.

Nine games does not transform a guy from end of the bench reserve to a true role player worthy of rotation level minutes and rotation level salary.

Simply put, Kaminsky had not established himself as belonging in the rotation for a contending team in PHX. There would have had to have been another half-season's worth of games, minimum, to even start that conversation as-if.

He's only a role player. And thus, you don't have to commit a guaranteed salary and roster slot to a guy so very likely to not be available.

 

My thoughts align with this Suns blogger's...

 

 

 

[Spud2nique]

22 minutes ago, sturt said:

Honest to God, my jaw dropped.

No way. Pics or it didn’t happen. Like I ain’t gonna pass it on  

[AHF]

Expected confirmation on the guarantee.  When a player signs a contract, the baseline assumption is that it is guaranteed and so most contracts are reported without that aspect being expressly addressed.  It is news worthy when all or a portion is not guaranteed and so that tends to be the context in which the level of guarantee is reported which is exactly what we saw with Tyrese Martin’s contract.

[JayBirdHawk]

On 7/9/2022 at 2:17 PM, sturt said:

If his contract is guaranteed, I'll admit I was wrong.

Still waiting for the actual admission 

[sturt]

44 minutes ago, AHF said:

Expected confirmation on the guarantee.  When a player signs a contract, the baseline assumption is that it is guaranteed and so most contracts are reported without that aspect being expressly addressed.  It is news worthy when all or a portion is not guaranteed and so that tends to be the context in which the level of guarantee is reported which is exactly what we saw with Tyrese Martin’s contract.

Wow, I had no idea this was going to be a topic of quite so much interest.

 

First, just speaking for me, it comes as no surprise that Spotrac would ever default to the presumption that a given contract is fully guaranteed. Indeed, that was exactly part of my reasoning for being hesitant to assume Kaminsky's was fully guaranteed.

 

But the assertion made above is that if any of us read an actual media person's report of some player being signed, that in the absence of anything specific to the guarantee being asserted, it is safe to assume that it is a full guarantee.

I can't say I've been keeping track, and again, I don't do statistics when I haven't a statistic to offer. But my Spidey sense recoiled, so I went to a favorite site that keeps a running feed of these kinds of things, HoopsRumors.

Once there, I scrolled down to a recent example of a signing.

My Spidey antennae seem to be in working order... Shams didn't report it, nor did any other source that Hoops Rumors found...

 

but Keith Smith eventually did...

 

[sturt]

3 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Still waiting for the actual admission 

 

hehe... are you though???

 

1 hour ago, sturt said:

I turned out to be wrong to decline to assume Spotrac was accurate.

 

(What's wrong with you people?)

[JayBirdHawk]

1 minute ago, sturt said:

 

hehe... are you though???

 

 

(What's wrong with you people?)

Buried the lead in 3 posts later ...that should have been your first post...but whatever.

[sturt]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

No way. Pics or it didn’t happen. Like I ain’t gonna pass it on  

 

Here ya go.

And.

Just so you know, people say I look a lot like Hugh Laurie.

[sturt]

4 hours ago, sturt said:

Breaking news:

AJC beat writer has confirmed Kaminsky's contract is guaranteed.

 

Don't care what anyone says... it is insane to guarantee money to a player with 4 consecutive years of significant injury history that prevented him from playing.

It's more insane when you're toeing the luxury tax line to begin with, and your front office otherwise has made not one but two deals in the off-season that were about the money.

 

It's not going to be the tipping point issue in winning a trophy. I just don't like irrational decisions as a rule.

 

Somehow, some people evidently construed from this post that I thought I'd been right.

 

Nope. I was wrong. I thought self-evidently, by the way I worded this, and indeed, by the very act of coming here to report it once it was confirmed.

 

But... haters....  ... whatchagonna do, right?

 

 

  

2 hours ago, sturt said:

I will always put my trust in the local beat writers with actual sources inside the front office.

EDIT: ... or Keith Smith.
 

I don't feel any need to apologize for that. Sue me.

 

[sturt]

Meanwhile....

 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, sturt said:

Wow, I had no idea this was going to be a topic of quite so much interest.

 

First, just speaking for me, it comes as no surprise that Spotrac would ever default to the presumption that a given contract is fully guaranteed. Indeed, that was exactly part of my reasoning for being hesitant to assume Kaminsky's was fully guaranteed.

 

But the assertion made above is that if any of us read an actual media person's report of some player being signed, that in the absence of anything specific to the guarantee being asserted, it is safe to assume that it is a full guarantee.

I can't say I've been keeping track, and again, I don't do statistics when I haven't a statistic to offer. But my Spidey sense recoiled, so I went to a favorite site that keeps a running feed of these kinds of things, HoopsRumors.

Once there, I scrolled down to a recent example of a signing.

My Spidey antennae seem to be in working order... Shams didn't report it, nor did any other source that Hoops Rumors found...

 

but Keith Smith eventually did...

 

Putting words in my mouth in that post.  I’ll assume it was a good faith misreading.  I’m saying that the vast majority of the time when a contract is signed it is fully guaranteed.  When it is not, it is normally reported fairly quickly after the signing (just like with Martin).  Non-guaranteed contracts that go unreported are outliers.  It is of course great to get direct confirmation but in the case of guaranteed contracts you will frequently never get that because it is not considered newsworthy.  The fact we had gone this long without any suggestion that Frank’s contract was anything other than fully guaranteed made it very unsurprising when it turned out to be guaranteed.  
 

Wasn’t critical of you asking the question.