Welcome to the Hawks, Frank Kaminsky

[AHF]

Your example is exactly what I’m saying.  You cited a report that didn’t mention the unguaranteed portion but that was newsworthy enough to be reported less than 24 hours after it was finalized.

[thecampster]

3 hours ago, sturt said:

 

If I believed Kaminsky was a $10m/yr player, I'd agree.

Honest to God, my jaw dropped.

We do not even barely agree that Kaminsky is a $10m/yr player.

He's a decent player who seemingly was on the rise when he once again got bitten by injury after just 9 games... terrible timing, because Ayton's having been injured was giving him some minutes.

Nine games does not transform a guy from end of the bench reserve to a true role player worthy of rotation level minutes and rotation level salary.

Simply put, Kaminsky had not established himself as belonging in the rotation for a contending team in PHX. There would have had to have been another half-season's worth of games, minimum, to even start that conversation as-if.

He's only a role player. And thus, you don't have to commit a guaranteed salary and roster slot to a guy so very likely to not be available.

 

My thoughts align with this Suns blogger's...

 

 

 

I get your skepticism and to be Frank (see what I did there?), until he can play 70 games in a season, its all what ifs and potential but let me show you 2 sets of PER 36 numbers last year.

Player 1 - 18.9 Points, 8.2 Rebounds, 2.6 Assists, 1.6 steals, 1.4 blocks, 1 turn over, 54.5 FG%. .583 eFG

Player 2 - 16.6 points, 6.6 Rebounds, 2.2 Assists, .6 steals, .3 blocks, .8 turn over, 43.4% FG%. .528 eFG

 

Player 1 was Kaminsky last year, Player 2 is Danilo Gallinari.

Player 1 is making less than 3 million this year. We paid Player 2, 20 million.  Statistically, team game speaking, Kaminsky is a better player.  I know that's hard to stomach but numbers don't lie.  Frank is on the upswing statistically, Danilo on the downturn. Frank is a far better player and help player defensively and at 1/7th the price.

[thecampster]

Now consider these 2 graphics.

Danilo for and against per.  Yes, that's a 46.3 against center PER (limited minutes which is why he can't/doesn't do it.).

 

 

Same graphic Kaminsky

 

He's a pain in the rear end for bench C's to cover, pulling opposing bigs away from the basket while be capable of guarding opposing bigs.  Danilo has to dive deep into his bag of tricks for this and it takes away from his offense when he has to play defense. 

[sturt]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Putting words in my mouth in that post.  I’ll assume it was a good faith misreading.  I’m saying that the vast majority of the time when a contract is signed it is fully guaranteed.  When it is not, it is normally reported fairly quickly after the signing (just like with Martin).  Non-guaranteed contracts that go unreported are outliers.  It is of course great to get direct confirmation but in the case of guaranteed contracts you will frequently never get that because it is not considered newsworthy.  The fact we had gone this long without any suggestion that Frank’s contract was anything other than fully guaranteed made it very unsurprising when it turned out to be guaranteed.  
 

Wasn’t critical of you asking the question.

Words in your mouth? Honestly and sincerely unsure what words you're referring to (?).

And not to be snarky, but of the two of us, I'm the one who had the intellectual humility to reconsider his perspective, and went to the Hoops Rumors newsfeed to test it.

Mine did not fail that test, happening upon a specimen of what I was talking about practically immediately.

And please recognize my disclaimer from the start of my post.... I, too, am inclined to the conclusion that it's routine enough that signings are fully guaranteed that the assumption isn't silly.

It is, however and to my point, not uncommon that we learn later that there are some curveballs in the structure that make it less than fully guaranteed.

So, it was also not silly to think we would eventually learn that Kaminsky's contract was that.

 

 

[sturt]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Your example is exactly what I’m saying.  You cited a report that didn’t mention the unguaranteed portion but that was newsworthy enough to be reported less than 24 hours after it was finalized.

 

 

My example is exactly what I'm saying, or I wouldn't have used the example.

It was a whole week before any affirmation on the guaranteed part was made public.

Now, is it true that once it shows up on the NBA Transactions page, we should expect some update shortly afterward?

Maybe.

You been tracking that, or are you just assuming you're right?

 

 

 

[sturt]

38 minutes ago, thecampster said:

2 sets of PER 36 numbers last year

 

Camp, c'mon... we're friends... last year???

We both know that last year Tank played an entire nine games.

 

 

[AHF]

18 minutes ago, sturt said:

 

 

My example is exactly what I'm saying, or I wouldn't have used the example.

It was a whole week before any affirmation on the guaranteed part was made public.

Now, is it true that once it shows up on the NBA Transactions page, we should expect some update shortly afterward?

Maybe.

You been tracking that, or are you just assuming you're right?

 

 

 

Think you are missing the point with your example.  One is a report about a tentative agreement to sign a player.  The other is about signing the player.  Reports on contract details like guarantees and incentives follow the actual contacts not reports of agreements in principal to the execute a contract in the future.  When you have an agreement in key terms, you typically don’t actually have a drafted contract and with abnormal provisions the devil is in the details so you need to put pen to paper so to speak.
 

It occurs to me that maybe we are talking about two different things.  I agree that contract details don’t typically come into the press before a player is signed.  If that is what you are focused on, perhaps we are actually in agreement.

To take that back to Frank, he was signed almost two weeks ago.  Ordinarily you would have seen a report in the following few days.  Had the Hawks announced an intent to sign him on 7/12 but actually signed him on 7/22, it would be normal to only be hearing about it now.

[Spud2nique]

4 hours ago, sturt said:

 

Here ya go.

And.

Just so you know, people say I look a lot like Hugh Laurie.

You like House? Wow, didn’t picture that. I thought maybe.. oh I dunno..

[thecampster]

2 hours ago, sturt said:

 

Camp, c'mon... we're friends... last year???

We both know that last year Tank played an entire nine games.

 

 

Okay, averages last 4 years (estimated).  17.7, 8.6, 3.2, .9.   

Better Assists and rebounds, slightly less points/blocks if we take the last 4 years, 142 games.  That's a big enough sample to say a healthy Frank > Gallo....especially considering we know the help defense, blocks are there.

 

Remember, Gallo is on his way down...Kaminsky is nearing his prime.

Edited July 25, 2022 by thecampster

[sturt]

3 hours ago, sturt said:

My example is exactly what I'm saying, or I wouldn't have used the example.

It was a whole week before any affirmation on the guaranteed part was made public.

Now, is it true that once it shows up on the NBA Transactions page, we should expect some update shortly afterward?

Maybe.

You been tracking that, or are you just assuming you're right?

@AHF I read your response, but failed to decipher an answer to my question.

[sturt]

1 hour ago, thecampster said:

Okay, averages last 4 years (estimated).  17.7, 8.6, 3.2, .9.   

Better Assists and rebounds, slightly less points/blocks if we take the last 4 years, 142 games.  That's a big enough sample to say a healthy Frank > Gallo....especially considering we know the help defense, blocks are there.

 

Remember, Gallo is on his way down...Kaminsky is nearing his prime.

Camp, I don't actually have any problem with Kaminsky. To be honest, I've been pleasantly surprised by his VORP and his WS/48 numbers--much better than what I would have guessed. You're responsible for me looking at that, so you can feel good about pressing the issue.

That said.

He's not a $10m/yr player.

Still.

Not even close.

At least not from where I sit.

 

Don't mind the signing at all, but just not a guaranteed one. Four consecutive years of injury. It's not rational.

[Gray Mule]

Injury prone.  This has a terrible ring to it.  Our new man, Frank Kaminsky, apparently qualifies for this terrible set of words applied to him.  Yet we have been told that he is 100% healthy right now.

As bad as these words are, this is the reason that he's a Hawk with the cheap contract.  Without these two words being added to his name he would have cost the Hawks a lot more.  Atlanta has taken the gamble.  Perhaps he will not get another serious injury.  If so, this deal will be great.

We all hope that we have a healthy Frank K. and that he will be a great + to our roster!

Edited July 25, 2022 by Gray Mule

[sturt]

1 hour ago, Gray Mule said:

he would have cost the Hawks a lot more.

Gray, he would have cost what this guy would have cost or very close to it, imo.

 

[AHF]

17 hours ago, sturt said:

@AHF I read your response, but failed to decipher an answer to my question.

The answer is "neither."

[Gray Mule]

This is the new Hawk that I am looking forward to seeing this upcoming season.  If he's healthy, he has the opportunity to be a help to our squad.  Sometimes a player just needs to be at the right place at the right time to shine.  This may be that time and place for Frank Kaminsky.

 

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[macdaddy]

Frank season highlight reel