Not just NY... But the League hates Trae Young....

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Added one more data point here -- feel like it's relevant to have Curry in this table as he's also a score first PG, who hopefully Trae is starting to model parts of his game around this off season

Is Curry a PG though?

Curry is an OG.   He doesn't have to run the offense in GS.   So far, we have found that when Trae is not running our offense, we're in real big trouble. 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

The media has too much influence on how players are perceived.

[AHF]

My point on the media and big markets is essentially that the media makes more money when they get more clicks and the biggest names in franchises and players drive those clicks so the media focuses content on them and pushes the narrative to focus on them.  Someone like LeBron is big enough that it really doesn't matter if he is in LA, Miami or Cleveland.  The media will cover it all with baited breath.  But guys like Trae don't have that luxury and since Atlanta is not one of the "click drivers" in the media you will see them get the short end of the stick on coverage relative to the bigger markets.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

My point on the media and big markets is essentially that the media makes more money when they get more clicks and the biggest names in franchises and players drive those clicks so the media focuses content on them and pushes the narrative to focus on them.  Someone like LeBron is big enough that it really doesn't matter if he is in LA, Miami or Cleveland.  The media will cover it all with baited breath.  But guys like Trae don't have that luxury and since Atlanta is not one of the "click drivers" in the media you will see them get the short end of the stick on coverage relative to the bigger markets.

That's a little true... But...  

Looking at the ALLstar Voting:

Player Name	Player Total Votes	Player Rank	Fan Total Votes	Fan Rank	Media Total Votes	Media Rank	Weighted Score
DeRozan, DeMar (CHI)	155	1	5,243,775	1	96	1	1
Young, Trae (ATL)	46	3	2,771,070	2	54	2	2.25
LaVine, Zach (CHI)	73	2	2,502,255	3	18	3	2.75
Harden, James (BKN)	46	3	2,458,923	4	17	4	3.75
Ball, LaMelo (CHA)	39	6	1,237,410	5	1	8	6

 

Fans like Trae. 

Players don't like Trae. 

In fact, looking at the Western Guards...

What's up with Luka??

[AHF]

I get players not loving Trae.  He has zero remorse about showing them up in front of their own fans.  He nutmegs them on the way to the hoop.  He focuses nearly all his energy on offense.  I'd expect him to need to cross a line that moves him from being resented by many of his peers until they can't help but respect him.  That will take more time for him than someone like LeBron (at the same point in his career).

[kg01]

23 minutes ago, AHF said:

I get players not loving Trae.  He has zero remorse about showing them up in front of their own fans.  He nutmegs them on the way to the hoop.  He focuses nearly all his energy on offense.  I'd expect him to need to cross a line that moves him from being resented by many of his peers until they can't help but respect him.  That will take more time for him than someone like LeBron (at the same point in his career).

This is how you gained(sic) our collective respeck.  Congrats?

[Final_quest]

I think Trae had a shot to be closer with Luka in status this past year, but our team came out flat and we underperformed. You can’t make the ECF then drop to 12th in the east at one point and expect to be seen as a superstar.  

[RedDawg#8]

10 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

I think Trae had a shot to be closer with Luka in status this past year, but our team came out flat and we underperformed. You can’t make the ECF then drop to 12th in the east at one point and expect to be seen as a superstar.  

**cough, DAME, cough cough**

[Final_quest]

2 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

**cough, DAME, cough cough**

Dame has won two playoff series with a buzzer beater.  He has a longer track record.  

[Hawkmoor]

10 hours ago, AHF said:

First, I don't agree about the league hating Trae.  I think the media is vested in wanting to see the big markets succeed and many (not all but many) of the media members predicted doom and gloom for Trae and wrote him off early and are embarrassed they missed so badly on him and so use any struggles to ring the bell for why their call that he was a bust was really kind of right.

Second, the reason you gave wasn't sound, imo.  You said it has "been tried before" with Iverson and Westbrook.  Trae isn't doing what they did so I don't agree with the premise of that rationale and was explaining why.  It pisses me off when I see him listed with those two because he is so far out of their league as a scorer and passer.

Let me say my stance on Trae again.  I feel Trae can be the best guard in the league.  My problem is HOW he plays the game.  Whether its a comparison to Iverson, Harden, it doesn't matter.  What I like about this upcoming season is the fact that the Hawks have a bona fide option in the backcourt to play with Trae.  This season will tell the tale about Trae as part of a WHOLE when it comes to team play.  

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Hawkmoor said:

Let me say my stance on Trae again.  I feel Trae can be the best guard in the league.  My problem is HOW he plays the game.  Whether its a comparison to Iverson, Harden, it doesn't matter.  What I like about this upcoming season is the fact that the Hawks have a bona fide option in the backcourt to play with Trae.  This season will tell the tale about Trae as part of a WHOLE when it comes to team play.  

This is the part that is vague...

When you say HOW he plays the game... and mention Iverson... what??  He plays nothing like Iverson. 

He plays like Iverson + Jason Kidd. 

 

Now if you're talking about his personality, charisma, muchismo... that's one thing.

However, if you're talking about how he runs an offense.. He's a tactician.  Steve Nash with better scoring. He's why we made it to the ECFs and possibly could have won that.   The fact that he has a PNR that's one of the best In History..  A GOAT Float... Can Shoot the three point.  Can hit FTs above 90%... Is a Leader on  the floor.   Is mentally tough.  Makes him one of the best players that the game has seen. 

 

 

[Final_quest]

1 hour ago, Hawkmoor said:

My problem is HOW he plays the game.  

Is this because he shoots long threes, or that he showboats?  I don't see anything wrong with the way he plays the game at this stage of his career.  

 

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

This is the part that is vague...

When you say HOW he plays the game... and mention Iverson... what??  He plays nothing like Iverson. 

He plays like Iverson + Jason Kidd. 

 

Now if you're talking about his personality, charisma, muchismo... that's one thing.

However, if you're talking about how he runs an offense.. He's a tactician.  Steve Nash with better scoring. He's why we made it to the ECFs and possibly could have won that.   The fact that he has a PNR that's one of the best In History..  A GOAT Float... Can Shoot the three point.  Can hit FTs above 90%... Is a Leader on  the floor.   Is mentally tough.  Makes him one of the best players that the game has seen. 

 

 

To add to all of this, he also commits a low number of turnovers.  I think there was a post that he is the only person that has ever recorded the number of points and assists in a season with fewer than 400 turnovers.  We were bottom 3 in the league in turnovers.  It's not like he is pulling a Westbrook or Iverson with 6-8 turnovers a game.   ....AND he did all of this with a fairly average supporting cast.   

[Peoriabird]

8 hours ago, Final_quest said:

To add to all of this, he also commits a low number of turnovers.  I think there was a post that he is the only person that has ever recorded the number of points and assists in a season with fewer than 400 turnovers.  We were bottom 3 in the league in turnovers.  It's not like he is pulling a Westbrook or Iverson with 6-8 turnovers a game.   ....AND he did all of this with a fairly average supporting cast.   

Trae led the league in turnovers this past season!

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=most+turnovers+nba+2021-2022

[AHF]

35 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Trae led the league in turnovers this past season!

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=most+turnovers+nba+2021-2022

Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees.  The team had the lowest turnovers in the entire league due to his ball control.  Of course his raw # of turnovers will be high considering that he misses almost no time and plays a central role on the team for both scoring and playmaking!

Trae's turnover% (the # of turnovers he generates per 100 possessions) was better than Chris Paul, LaMelo Ball, Jrue Holiday, Luka Doncic, James Harden, Kyle Lowry, and plenty of others.  When you do better in turnover% and assist% than Chris Paul, that is probably a good sign.

Here are the 8 people in the league with an assist% over 35% and their turnover%:

[shakes]

34 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Trae led the league in turnovers this past season!

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=most+turnovers+nba+2021-2022

Please edit your post and make it less of a personal attack.

[Hawkmoor]

12 hours ago, Final_quest said:

Is this because he shoots long threes, or that he showboats?  I don't see anything wrong with the way he plays the game at this stage of his career.  

 

long three point shots.  long three point shots early in the clock. long three point shots at the worst times. rim drives with 4 defenders hanging on him and not kicking the ball out in the process.  whining to the referees.  turnovers.  zero defense.  want me to continue?

Edited August 25, 2022 by Hawkmoor

[Peoriabird]

3 hours ago, AHF said:

 Of course his raw # of turnovers will be high considering that he misses almost no time and plays a central role on the team for both scoring and playmaking!

 

 

The guy literally said that Trae has low turnover numbers.  He said nothing about assist to turnover ratios.

3 hours ago, shakes said:

Please edit your post and make it less of a personal attack.

????

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

The guy literally said that Trae has low turnover numbers.  He said nothing about assist to turnover ratios.

He commits a low number of turnovers compared to Chris Paul.  Turnover rate is what measures the frequency of turnovers, not total turnovers.  Total turnovers is not useful when people play different numbers of games, minutes, get different numbers of touches, etc.  

It is suspect to not to put his turnovers in context if you are going to raise them.  I say that because I know you pay close attention to turnovers so it isn't something that you aren't very aware of from prior conversations.  You know he isn't close to the highest turnover rate in the league and that he is better at limiting turnovers than everyone near his assist numbers. 

(Note that while DM is significantly lower in assist % he is the only one on the list above with a better turnover % rate.  How promising is our backcourt next season for a combination of playmaking and ball protection?) 

[Peoriabird]

7 minutes ago, AHF said:

He commits a low number of turnovers compared to Chris Paul. 

I reread his post and didn't see Paul's name mention or turnover rate. But anyway, where did his turnover rate rank in last year's playoffs?

[AHF]

20 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

I reread his post and didn't see Paul's name mention or turnover rate. But anyway, where did his turnover rate rank in last year's playoffs?

I'd have to see what players got triple teamed in the playoffs last year to do a meaningful comparison but we all know he struggled like crazy in the playoffs so I doubt it was good regardless of how you slice it.  In the regular season, you blasted him over and over for turnovers while he was leading the team to historic lows in overall turnovers and outdoing the very best in the game at controlling turnovers.  So given your focus on this issue, I'm looking for a nuanced and contextualized discussion comparing him to players in like roles and evaluating the impact on team performance.  I believe in you.