We've been spoiled.

[bleachkit]

2 hours ago, marco102 said:

I too am way more concerned about his shooting. If you look at his career thus far, he's up and down with his three point shooting every other year.  next year, he'll probably be around 40% based off those trends.

Care to make an avatar bet on that? He's a career 35% three point shooter. 21/22 season is the only one where he shot it well. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by bleachkit

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

No...  I hate that his shot is not falling.

But what does make me happy is that we have a 26/10 player in a Hawks Jersey who has shown that he can win in the playoffs. 

What does make me happy is that we have somebody who is not afraid of the moment. 

What does make me happy is that for once, we have a leader who is not a nonaggressive leader. 

So... if he makes mistakes while being those things..  I'm not happy about it but  I wouldn't trade him either. 

I have been a Hawks fan since 75...   I have been waiting for somebody to come along who could make us relevant like Nique did.  Now we have somebody who has taken us farther than Nique has.. farther than we have ever been before (Atlanta Hawks) and we have a smattering of fans who want to trade him away because he's not perfect. 

Hell to the Nawl.

I believe we owe it to all the fans like me who patiently waited while Babcock traded Nique for Manning...  While  Babcock bungled another draft pick... While We made a playoff promise with Lon Kruger coaching...  While Ferry Bungled another draft pick.. and while Travis traded away players for money... to see if Trae can get us back to relevance if he has good players around him. 

 

 

Agree.

He's easily the most impactful player we've had here since Dikembe.  And even Dikembe wasn't a real offensive threat that made people better.  So Trae, from an offensive impact standpoint, is more comparable to Dominique.

It would be dumb as hell to toss Trae out without giving Quin a chance to work with him for a full year.

Yes, he needs to clean up his game.  But until he does, he simply has to make shots, whether they be 2s or 3s.

[AtLaS]

20 hours ago, NBASupes said:

The issue isn't being spoiled, it's being delusional. 

Trae been ass for years now and his fans will point to raw stats when his decision making wasn't good last year and dropped to extreme degrees this year. 

All of this has made Dre the scapegoat by his fans as they want Dre to be Kawhi Jr when he was never ever Kawhi like. In fact, this is Dre best season on both ends. 

It's hard to continue blaming the Kevin trade because the Bey trade erased that. The issue is, Murray and Trae don't fit. Need the rock and honestly, I'll rather have ole steady Daniel Jones at QB in Murray over extremely stat productive, f*** up productive, Tampa's Jameis Winston. 

I honestly was sold that Trae was a gamer because of his play in heroics and his first playoff run where he showed me he's the next Reggie Miller but honestly, was that all just teams being behind schedule with our 1/5 PnR and realizing isolation Trae isn't a bad play, it's actually a good one for the better defensive teams. And just the playin not really given you time to prep for Trae and single elimination Trae is hard to play against?

It doesn't help all of these teams became better shooters but we vastly regressed at shooting including Trae. 

So now every idiot and blaming their personal scapegoat when in reality, we are f***ed like Chuck with Trae. His lack of improvement compared to others in his draft class has been notable. 

SGA, Brunson, Mikal Bridges, have all gotten a lot better. 

JJJ, Luka, and Kevin been getting better. 

Ayton, Bagley, WCJ, and Sexton seem stuck. 

Trae, Bamba, and Knox seem to gotten worse. 

Maybe Trae fans are right, it's those around Trae. But is Murray really much worse, no than SA. No, he's the same player, just with less touches and he's playing with two rebounding bigs in Atlanta whereas he was playing with bigs like Keldon Johnson and Luka Poetl in SA. His defense seem to get somewhat exposed as he dies on screens as much as Trae. Then again, it wouldn't be so bad if he was the PG where dying on screens is a lot more common. 

Maybe, that was just a bad trade as Trae didn't need another PG to play beside. Can we really win with someone who makes a million bad decisions on possession by possession like Trae and what we saw in the 2021 playoffs might just have been a lie. Maybe it was just 2021 playoff Trae but playoff Trae is just RS Trae with occasional special moments. 

It's not that teams have gotten better at defending Trae, he just doesn't have the confidence that he had in 2021 and 2022 regular season.  That Miami series screwed him up and he has not been the same since.  

He's making worse decisions than he used to and his shot is broken. It's mental IMO.  

[AtLaS]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

Last game, he missed the floater and when he came down... he looked at his hand like What  Just happened?

I have concerns because he's missing shots that he normally hits... and I don't want him to lose his confidence.   I really think that we have moved far away from the 1-5 pick and roll this year.   I know we still run it on occasion but it has all but disappeared from our offense.   I just hope that whatever is next enhances his abilities as a play maker and a scorer. 

 

 

His last 6 playoff games have been atrocious.  

When he starts a game going 2-12 with 5 turnovers in the first half and playing below average D, we just aren't going to win.

Since Trae isn't a great defender (although improved), it's nearly impossible to win against a good team if he isn't dominating offensively.  

He's my favorite player and led us on the most exciting playoff run I've ever seen, but he just isn't the same player he was 2 years ago (or last year before the Miami series).  I hope he gets it back soon.  

[Diesel]

5 minutes ago, AtLaS said:

It's not that teams have gotten better at defending Trae, he just doesn't have the confidence that he had in 2021 and 2022 regular season.  That Miami series screwed him up and he has not been the same since.  

He's making worse decisions than he used to and his shot is broken. It's mental IMO.  

I can't help but agree with you based on what we have seen so far. 

Maybe it's working out with Steph's shooting coach.  Maybe it's the stigma from Miami series.    I don't knwo what it is for sure.. but I know it's a lot.   He has to carry all the criticism.. and then he doesn't get the calls that others in his genre gets.  I hate watching Jimmy Butler.   The Miami Chicago playin game was a travesty.  I don't even like Chicago.  But it was  Not the end, Chicago did enough to lose it in the end... but the middle where the refs carried the Heat to the end.  Travesty. You can be a Heat fan and I'm sure that you won't deny that Jimmy Butler gets calls that refs would not dream of giving Trae. 

So... Trae has a lot to work on...  But the main thing is role and shot.   He quietly has improved his defense.   He quietly has improved his turnovers and his A/TO.   Personally, what I would like to see is his shooting up beyond 45% from the field and his three point shooting about 37.5% or better with everything else he's doing. 

 

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, AtLaS said:

 

His last 6 playoff games have been atrocious.  

When he starts a game going 2-12 with 5 turnovers in the first half and playing below average D, we just aren't going to win.

Since Trae isn't a great defender (although improved), it's nearly impossible to win against a good team if he isn't dominating offensively.  

He's my favorite player and led us on the most exciting playoff run I've ever seen, but he just isn't the same player he was 2 years ago (or last year before the Miami series).  I hope he gets it back soon.  

He was actually 3-11 with 4 TO in the first half but I have to say that is damning him with faint praise.  Either way, that was an abomination of a game.  We are doomed if that isn't an outlier for the series.

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

He was actually 3-11 with 4 TO in the first half but I have to say that is damning him with faint praise.  Either way, that was an abomination of a game.  We are doomed if that isn't an outlier for the series.

I guess one question is...

Is his new found defensive effort effecting his energy on the offensive end?

• Less PNRs
• Less Blow bys
• Less Floaters

?

[JayBirdHawk]

11 minutes ago, AtLaS said:

It's not that teams have gotten better at defending Trae, he just doesn't have the confidence that he had in 2021 and 2022 regular season.  That Miami series screwed him up and he has not been the same since.  

He's making worse decisions than he used to and his shot is broken. It's mental IMO.  

Or it could be as simple as that he is trying to adjust his game to what everybody wants it to be: play off ball, keep teammates involved, stop taking long 3s and most 3s (per Nate - according to what Trae said since Quin took over that he and the team has to change their mindset regarding 3pt shooting, shooting when open in lieu of waiting for the close out and attacking the close out and shooting mid-range which is a Nate staple), adjust his game to play with DJ,  play better defense and on and on - I would think there is an adjustment and learning curve that comes with that.

[macdaddy]

20 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Or it could be as simple as that he is trying to adjust his game to what everybody wants it to be: play off ball, keep teammates involved, stop taking long 3s and most 3s (per Nate - according to what Trae said since Quin took over that he and the team has to change their mindset regarding 3pt shooting, shooting when open in lieu of waiting for the close out and attacking the close out and shooting mid-range which is a Nate staple), adjust his game to play with DJ,  play better defense and on and on - I would think there is an adjustment and learning curve that comes with that.

Yeah.  And it's not like he's not adjusting.   His shot has been off and he shot 2 fewer 3s a game than he did last year when he was shooting 38%.  And he has a career high in assists.  This is why the whole 'he's been trash' argument is hard to stomach.  

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

This is why the whole 'he's been trash' argument is hard to stomach.  

....they don't understand the 'Modern NBA' 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

The thing is that Trae gets his turnovers on Bad passes and Not Loss Balls.   He's way down on the lost balls list.  What that tells me is that his turnovers are a result of him trying to do something because he's scorer and facilitator.  Yes, we'd like to see it come down... but like you said, it comes with the territory. 

 

Agree again.  Trae's turnovers are a result of trying to make things happen on offense.  Now the lazy open court passes are something he needs to eliminate.

Here are Trae's 5 turnovers from the Boston game:

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=TOV&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0042200111&PlayerID=1629027&RangeType=0&Season=2022-23&SeasonType=Playoffs&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612737&flag=1&sct=plot&section=game

 

Turnover #1 was a result of Jalen Brown being locked in defensively from the jump. Trae assumes that DJ would come free like he always does.  But Brown is already denying the ball from the jump.  That pass was lazy as hell.

Turnover #2 was way too easy for Robert Williams to read. Trae obviously did not see Williams and threw a loop pass cross the lane intended for DJ, that was easily picked off. Not a lazy pass but a bad read.

Turnover #3 was a pass that only a true playmaker tries to make.  Despite driving to the basket, Trae has his eyes on JJ the entire time, and slipped a nice pass to him. JJ wasn't ready for it and it goes off of his hands.  It was a point blank pass.  Collins may have caught this, due to him playing with Trae for 5 years.

Turnover #4 was a lob that was broken up by Smart. It was an excellent effort play that enabled him to knock the ball away. But these are also the aggressive passes that Trae more often than not, is able to pull off.

Turnover #5 was Trae still being aggressive, despite being down by 32. Got the ball caught on his hip.  Otherwise, he may have had enough space to shoot a left hand layup over Horford.  Would've been a tough but makeable shot.

 

On the flip side, these are Trae's assists:

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=AST&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0042200111&PlayerID=1629027&RangeType=0&Season=2022-23&SeasonType=Playoffs&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612737&flag=1&sct=plot&section=game

Assist #1 was a beautiful lob to Collins. He sets it up early and slips right pass Brogdon. The key play was that Capela set a solid back screen on White, who never saw Capela, which freed up Trae for a clear look to Collins.

Assist #2 was a Quin special. He's made an emphasis of pushing the ball ahead quickly.  Trae has done this with frequency in the past, so to see him make a 50 foot chest pass to Bey like that, put a smile on my face.

Assist #3 was a nice find to Collins by Trae, after having his dribble drive stopped. Great use of his pivot foot to give him time to make the bounce pass to Collins.

Assist #4 shows great chemistry between Collins and Trae for a 3rd time. After trying to draw a 3 point foul from Horford, he was able to get the ball to Collins before a travel was called.  Collins immediately got the back to Trae as he's coming around Horford, and John immediately rolls to the basket.  With Trae not free of Horford, he could shoot the floater over Williams, or he could toss the soft lob to Collins, which he did.

Assist #5 was one of those "modern day assists".  Trae passes the ball to Dre, and he gathers himself, takes 2 dribbles driving on the left side, and shoots a jumper. I guess since he passed the ball to Dre, and he shot the ball within 2 seconds, it's an assist.

Assist #6 was a result of DJ making a quick move toward the basket when he got the ball from Trae.  As soon as he got the ball, DJ attacks, putting White on his heels the entire way to an easy layup.

Assist #7 was a perfect execution of the pick and roll. Capela screens White and turns his entire body around to prolong the White screen. Trae has his option to shoot the floater or lob it to a rolling Capela.  He chooses the lob and CC dunks it.

Assist #8 is the reason why we need our shooters to play more.  Okongwu comes up to screen Trae's man 35 feet from the basket.  Trae disregards the screen and whips a 2 hand chest pass to Bey on the opposite wing.  Williams is in the vicinity of Bey but left him too much room.  Bey immediately catches and shoots and knocks down the 3.

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

What do you call it then @JeffS17

1. I mean you start on this campaign against Trae's turnovers...
2. as you see the numbers.. (present and historic). You change it to... Turnovers per....
3. Then it becomes  his A/TO  ratio is being killed by his bad decision making...
4. Next... It's   The stats don't mean as much as the eye test...

Now... that I point out that you have consciously and consistently been trying to find something wrong with Trae...  "This is where I tune you out."   It's the same ole line Jeff.   If people can not agree with your exact stance against Trae then they are a Trae Stan...   If people prove your argument ineffective using stats... then the stats are a problem.  And when all else fails...  ignore ignore ignore...

I thought this was supposed to be about dialogue. 

Notice.. I don't think that there's anybody who hasn't said that Trae makes mistakes...  I think we all have said that.  I don't think that there's anybody who has said that Trae is perfect just the way he is.. I think we all have mentioned things we would like to see Trae Change or Improve.  But what's the need to go beyond that?  What Seek ye?

Bottom Line, you can find enough mistakes in Trae's game to have to pin your hopes on Turnovers.   You make the same mistake that Skip Bayless and the Media makes in trying to use that... It doesn't say what they want it to say.  It puts him in a class of other players who scores the ball a lot and tries to make things happen. ... not in the class of people who can't make good reads, can't make good passes.. and often lose the ball.   If that's what you want, DJ is better at that than Trae. 

 

 

 

For some reason, some in this fan base really downplay Trae's ability to facilitate and its impact on a game.  When he has both the scoring and assists going, he's damn near impossible to stop on offense because you're going to get points on 1 out of every 2 possessions.  The dude is 3rd in the league in created points.  Only Luka and Harden create more. And it's only by a point or two.

The open court turnovers are the ones I don't like from Trae.  Turnovers with him going aggressive to the rim don't bother me at all.  The fact that the refs will swallow their whistles at times when he gets hit going to the hole, will affect his game.

But his passing game is amazing at times. And you don't make the kind of passes that he does, unless you're willing to take chances.

1st quarter turnovers should not be treated like it's the end of the world.  Late game turnovers are far more devastating, especially if you're losing.

[JayBirdHawk]

16 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Turnover #1 was a result of Jalen Brown being locked in defensively from the jump. Trae assumes that DJ would come free like he always does.  But Brown is already denying the ball from the jump.  That pass was lazy as hell.

I think DJ went too quickly, he should have given Clint time to set the actual screen on Brown - that's a typical hand off.

[marco102]

3 hours ago, bleachkit said:

Care to make an avatar bet on that? He's a career 35% three point shooter. 21/22 season is the only one where he shot it well. 

around 40% doesn't equal 40%.  So yeah if Trae is 37.5% or above below you get to pick my avatar.

[marco102]

31 minutes ago, marco102 said:

around 40% doesn't equal 40%.  So yeah if Trae is  below 37.5% you get to pick my avatar.

@bleachkit

[AHF]

@marco102 - you guys should also say for how long (a month, etc.).  I assume this is for the 2023-24 season.

[cam1218]

Trae is asked to do a lot, I’m on the same page as a lot of y’all with his turnovers. We need him to be a playmaker and I can live with the outcome assuming he isn’t reckless with the ball.

His shooting has to improve though. A lot of it is, to me, forcing his shot. When he is at his best he lets the game come to him. I remember early in his career he’d have 5 assists in the first quarter and then take over offensively later. So whatever it is, I hope he focuses on shot selection and improving his shot this off-season. He is still very young, so it’s not out of the realm that he can improve.

[marco102]

40 minutes ago, AHF said:

@marco102 - you guys should also say for how long (a month, etc.).  I assume this is for the 2023-24 season.

lol mine will be permeant since I don't know where to find my current one. I found it on twitter.

[AHF]

36 minutes ago, cam1218 said:

He is still very young, so it’s not out of the realm that he can improve.

At the same age, John Stockton was coming off the bench behind Utah starting PG Rickey Green.  Steve Nash was leading Dallas to 19 wins (short season but they stunk). Both of them averaged less than 8 ppg.

Trae is plenty young enough to still make serious steps in his game and approach to the game.

4 minutes ago, marco102 said:

lol mine will be permeant since I don't know where to find my current one. I found it on twitter.

Here you go:

[AHF]

This one is somewhat similar:

https://twitter.com/DerekHGraphics/status/1410720196369788928/photo/1