I have it from a good source... We next

[Packfill]

10 hours ago, Diesel said:

I disagree.  Jokic didn't raise his game.  His supporting cast got of the IL...

Murray, MPJ, and KCP and Gordon are a great surrounding cast.   They were finally all healthy at the same time. 

Our guys are healthy but not that good. 

Jokic is a much better player than Trae. Maybe Trae levels up to that MVP level but until that happens history shows the Hawks have little chance to win a championship. 
 

And Jokic is a good example of a player that leveled up- he went from all star to MVP. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 hours ago, Packfill said:

Jokic is a much better player than Trae. Maybe Trae levels up to that MVP level but until that happens history shows the Hawks have little chance to win a championship. 
 

And Jokic is a good example of a player that leveled up- he went from all star to MVP. 

 

Denver won nothing until Murray emerged as a legit All-Star level player ( even if he hasn't made an All-Star team yet ).

Trae could be the greatest NBA PG of all time, he'd still need some help.

[macdaddy]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Denver won nothing until Murray emerged as a legit All-Star level player ( even if he hasn't made an All-Star team yet ).

Trae could be the greatest NBA PG of all time, he'd still need some help.

Well they went to the WCF (in the bubble) with Murray/Jokic  surrounded by Barton, Harris and Grant.  So Murray and Jokic has definitely been a winning combo for them.  

[Diesel]

7 hours ago, Packfill said:

Jokic is a much better player than Trae. Maybe Trae levels up to that MVP level but until that happens history shows the Hawks have little chance to win a championship. 
 

And Jokic is a good example of a player that leveled up- he went from all star to MVP. 

I'm not going to say that Trae is equal to Jokic, but Trae is not that far behind Jokic.  I think the major difference that you seek however is Murray, KCP, Gordon, and MPJ....

Compare them to our starters.  Tell me how our starters are equal.

It's easier to be Jokic when you have guys who can carry the load on your team.   So let me ask it... Do you think if we traded Trae for Jokic that Jokic could take these Hawks to the Chip?  I'll even let you trade Clint for a Clint level SG...  Now  if you give Jokic:  DMJ, Hunter, Collins and a Clint level shooting guard and the reserves from the nuggets... and you say that they can win a chip then we have a conversation.. But if you can't you have your answer. 

 

[Diesel]

Here you go... @Packfill

Trade Hunter, Collins, and our Murray for MPJ, Gordon and their Murray.

Do they win a chip?

 

[Packfill]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Here you go... @Packfill

Trade Hunter, Collins, and our Murray for MPJ, Gordon and their Murray.

Do they win a chip?

 

No unless Trae levels up.

That is not a slight on Trae just fact.  Jokic is currently the best player in the world.  Remember Jokic won an MVP last year with no Murray and MPJ playing only 9 games. 

[Packfill]

4 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Denver won nothing until Murray emerged as a legit All-Star level player ( even if he hasn't made an All-Star team yet ).

Trae could be the greatest NBA PG of all time, he'd still need some help.

Playoff Jamal Murray is incredible.  Regular season Jamal Murray is good. 

Dejounte can provide regular season Jamal Murray production but no evidence yet he can do what Jamal does in the playoffs.

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, Packfill said:

No unless Trae levels up.

That is not a slight on Trae just fact.  Jokic is currently the best player in the world.  Remember Jokic won an MVP last year with no Murray and MPJ playing only 9 games. 

@PackfillLet's try this again...  You missed it...

Trade Hunter, Collins, and our Murray for MPJ, Gordon and their Murray.

Does Denver still win a chip??

 

[Packfill]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

@PackfillLet's try this again...  You missed it...

Trade Hunter, Collins, and our Murray for MPJ, Gordon and their Murray.

Does Denver still win a chip??

 

Hard to say. Denver’s chances go down for sure but they have a better shot after that trade than the Hawks do because they have an MVP. 
 

it is a pointless issue though because the key point is NBA history shows us that the baseline for an NBA championship is an MVP level performer. Denver has that and the Hawks do not. And to be clear having an MVP level player does not guarantee you will get a championship just that it is a requirement to get there. 
 

The history of NBA champions is a gut punch to fans of teams that lack that caliber of player. 

[Diesel]

53 minutes ago, Packfill said:

Hard to say. Denver’s chances go down for sure but they have a better shot after that trade than the Hawks do because they have an MVP. 
 

it is a pointless issue though because the key point is NBA history shows us that the baseline for an NBA championship is an MVP level performer. Denver has that and the Hawks do not. And to be clear having an MVP level player does not guarantee you will get a championship just that it is a requirement to get there. 
 

The history of NBA champions is a gut punch to fans of teams that lack that caliber of player. 

The truth my friend is that Denver doesn't win a chip and you know it, I know it and every fan on this board knows it.  Moreover, it's not pointless, it proves the point...  Jokic has a much better cast playing with him than Trae does.   Period.  When you have others around you who are really good, then you look better.   Miami couldn't isolate Jokic the way that they isolated Trae.  They tried that and Murray went OFF... Murray and Jokic were the first pair ever to have 30 point triple doubles in the HISTORY OF THE FINALS.   Probably ever.   Do you even grasp the gravity of that.   That's two guys getting whatever they want when they want it. 

You keep harping on Trae needing to raise his game.  What player is Trae playing with that's capable of meeting him with a 30 point triple double?

Let me help you here... NONE.  We can barely get another player to score 20 points.   When we played Miami, the system was so easy because Miami knew we had NO BODY who could score consistently.   

In game 4, do you realize that Gordon scored 27 points...  Bruce Brown put up 21 points.   While we are begging for Hunter to just be a little more aggressive and try to get over the 12 point hump, they have players putting up damn near 30 points. 

You damn right that Jokic looks like the MVP.. He has a high quality team.  I watched the start of game 5, Miami figured out that if they just run on every inbound that they will get Jokic tired.  And it worked.   And they took Jokic out of the game because he was getting in foul trouble.   And Bam started working over Green.   Then they went to the bench and pulled off Jordan and we didn't hear a peep from Bam any more. Then Jokic came back and kept eating. 

Lastly.. you give Trae Murray, MPJ and Gordon... I wouldn't count out a trip to the chip.  Just like those guys help elevate Jokic game.  They would do the same for Trae. 

 

 

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

7 hours ago, Packfill said:

Hard to say. Denver’s chances go down for sure but they have a better shot after that trade than the Hawks do because they have an MVP. 
 

it is a pointless issue though because the key point is NBA history shows us that the baseline for an NBA championship is an MVP level performer. Denver has that and the Hawks do not. And to be clear having an MVP level player does not guarantee you will get a championship just that it is a requirement to get there. 
 

The history of NBA champions is a gut punch to fans of teams that lack that caliber of player. 

 

If the Hawks were a 50+ win team, a top 2 seed in the East, and top 5 in the NBA . . . and a player averaged these numbers:

• 28.4 ppg
• 9.7 asst
• 3.7 rebs
• 0.9 stls
• 46% FG
• 38% 3FG
• 90% FT ( on 6.6 makes per game )

That guy is going to get top 5 MVP votes and be 1st team All-NBA in most years.

 

The history of the NBA when it comes to championships, says you actually need 3 things:

• MVP level performer
• 2nd guy who is a legit All-Star performer
• Top 10 offense/defense

And I would personally add a 4th element . . a 3rd guy who can show that he can elevate his game to All-Star level.

When you look at Denver this year, who was NOT a high level regular season team, they did check off all of the main boxes

• MVP level performer - Jokic
• 2nd guy who is a legit All-Star performer - Murray
• Top 10 offense or top 5 defense - 5th in offense

 

Elimination game on the road, in one of the most hostile environments in NBA history.  You're down your 2nd best player due to suspension.  And no one on the planet outside of Hawks fans, even think you have a chance to win the game.

This is a MVP level performance

 

 

[JeffS17]

On 6/15/2023 at 6:16 AM, MarylandHawk said:

Other mofos on the team got to step up their efficiency to get us over the hump.

To address this and Diesels question of when hasn’t 27/10 been enough — Westbrook 2014-2020 is the answer.  And there are others… efficiency matters, as does defensive effort among other things trae can improve on.  We don’t pay him that much to accept good stats as the performance threshold.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Hawks playoff road wins in their career

• Trae - 7
• Dominique - 6
• Mookie - 5
• Sweet Lou - 5
• Smitty - 4
• JJ - 4

We have the MVP level guy who can come up big on the road.  We just need the role players who can come up big at home.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

12 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

To address this and Diesels question of when hasn’t 27/10 been enough — Westbrook 2014-2020 is the answer.  And there are others… efficiency matters, as does defensive effort among other things trae can improve on.  We don’t pay him that much to accept good stats as the performance threshold.

 

Just for accuracy, Westbrook has only done that 1 time in his career.  That was his MVP year where he averaged a triple double on 31 ppg.  But they lose in round 1.  Here was his squad.

 

 

Russell had to do it all for that team, considering how young and inexperienced they were.  His turnovers were astronomically high, but it wasn't due to lack of effort.  He simply had to do too much, or felt he had to do it.

Even if Westbrook shot 50% FG, that team isn't winning anything.

You simply need others at times to step up.  Most of the time, those others are going to be vets that know how to play the game.

[Packfill]

43 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Just for accuracy, Westbrook has only done that 1 time in his career.  That was his MVP year where he averaged a triple double on 31 ppg.  But they lose in round 1.  Here was his squad.

 

 

Russell had to do it all for that team, considering how young and inexperienced they were.  His turnovers were astronomically high, but it wasn't due to lack of effort.  He simply had to do too much, or felt he had to do it.

Even if Westbrook shot 50% FG, that team isn't winning anything.

You simply need others at times to step up.  Most of the time, those others are going to be vets that know how to play the game.

No one disputes the importance of a good supporting cast.  It is just that it is easier to get a good supporting cast than it is to get an MVP, particularly one in their prime.  Embiid is an MVP level player but he has not gotten a championship because his supporting cast has not been good enough.

Jokic won an MVP with an underwhelming supporting cast (due to injuries to Murray and MPJ) and the playoff results evidence that lack of support.  

If everyone thinks Trae is our MVP (I honestly do not think he has played at an MVP level to date) then where are they getting their Jamal Murray?  

[Packfill]

10 hours ago, Diesel said:

The truth my friend is that Denver doesn't win a chip and you know it, I know it and every fan on this board knows it.  Moreover, it's not pointless, it proves the point...  Jokic has a much better cast playing with him than Trae does.   Period.  When you have others around you who are really good, then you look better.   Miami couldn't isolate Jokic the way that they isolated Trae.  They tried that and Murray went OFF... Murray and Jokic were the first pair ever to have 30 point triple doubles in the HISTORY OF THE FINALS.   Probably ever.   Do you even grasp the gravity of that.   That's two guys getting whatever they want when they want it. 

You keep harping on Trae needing to raise his game.  What player is Trae playing with that's capable of meeting him with a 30 point triple double?

Let me help you here... NONE.  We can barely get another player to score 20 points.   When we played Miami, the system was so easy because Miami knew we had NO BODY who could score consistently.   

In game 4, do you realize that Gordon scored 27 points...  Bruce Brown put up 21 points.   While we are begging for Hunter to just be a little more aggressive and try to get over the 12 point hump, they have players putting up damn near 30 points. 

You damn right that Jokic looks like the MVP.. He has a high quality team.  I watched the start of game 5, Miami figured out that if they just run on every inbound that they will get Jokic tired.  And it worked.   And they took Jokic out of the game because he was getting in foul trouble.   And Bam started working over Green.   Then they went to the bench and pulled off Jordan and we didn't hear a peep from Bam any more. Then Jokic came back and kept eating. 

Lastly.. you give Trae Murray, MPJ and Gordon... I wouldn't count out a trip to the chip.  Just like those guys help elevate Jokic game.  They would do the same for Trae. 

 

 

 

 

No question the supporting cast is the second most important element to winning a championship.  It is just that the first and most important element is the MVP. 

Jokic won a MVP without Jamal Murray and MPJ.  Can Trae?  Hopefully, be he needs to raise his game in a way that directly results in more wins for the team.  He can average 30 and 12 but if the team is 41-41 it won't matter.

[Diesel]

6 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

To address this and Diesels question of when hasn’t 27/10 been enough — Westbrook 2014-2020 is the answer.  And there are others… efficiency matters, as does defensive effort among other things trae can improve on.  We don’t pay him that much to accept good stats as the performance threshold.

I don't disagree that efficiency matters... but when you look at Westbrook's team.. What other players did he have?

Taj Gibson?  Steven Adams?    I know... Anthony Morrow.  There was no other allstar level player on the team.   Similar to Trae.  You can't blame it all on efficiency... sometimes you just don't have the makeup to be a chip contending team.   You can't look at this thing in a vacuum. 

By the way, what were you saying last year when Trae did have good efficiency??

Don't bother... probably same thing.. Trae needs to raise his game... Yada Yada Yada.   One day you will hold some of the other players on the team (making money beyond their output) accountable.   For now.. however, you can continue to hold Trae, who is breaking historic records with his play, responsible for why we're not their yet...

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, Packfill said:

No question the supporting cast is the second most important element to winning a championship.  It is just that the first and most important element is the MVP. 

Jokic won a MVP without Jamal Murray and MPJ.  Can Trae?  Hopefully, be he needs to raise his game in a way that directly results in more wins for the team.  He can average 30 and 12 but if the team is 41-41 it won't matter.

Again... this is not really about Jokic vs. Trae.. like you want it to be... you wanted to talk about Championship teams right?

Alright let's change the focus for you...  Take either of the Detroit teams that won a championship...  Who was their MVP level player? (Especially the non Bad boys).  You said it's easy to get the supporting cast.  Cool  then let's bring them in.   Be a supporting cast like Detriot had.   You can try to discredit Trae all you like.. that's your prerogative.  However, let's not mistake the fact that Trae is probably the best player that has ever won the Hawks Jersey from an output point of view.   Yeah the game is dominated by Lebrons and Giannis and Jokics and Embiid but until Jokic finally got his supporting cast together, he had MVPs but had never left the 2nd round of the playoffs.  Embiid has an MVP but has never sniffed the conference finals.   So having the hardware that says that the fans and some writers appreciate your game doesn't automatically mean that you're going to the Chip and can win it.   That requires a team effort.   

 

[Packfill]

18 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Again... this is not really about Jokic vs. Trae.. like you want it to be... you wanted to talk about Championship teams right?

Alright let's change the focus for you...  Take either of the Detroit teams that won a championship...  Who was their MVP level player? (Especially the non Bad boys).  You said it's easy to get the supporting cast.  Cool  then let's bring them in.   Be a supporting cast like Detriot had.   You can try to discredit Trae all you like.. that's your prerogative.  However, let's not mistake the fact that Trae is probably the best player that has ever won the Hawks Jersey from an output point of view.   Yeah the game is dominated by Lebrons and Giannis and Jokics and Embiid but until Jokic finally got his supporting cast together, he had MVPs but had never left the 2nd round of the playoffs.  Embiid has an MVP but has never sniffed the conference finals.   So having the hardware that says that the fans and some writers appreciate your game doesn't automatically mean that you're going to the Chip and can win it.   That requires a team effort.   

 

A few things I will note:

1.  The premise of this thread is about winning a championship and what it takes to get there.

2.  No one said anything to discredit Trae.  It is absolutely fair to question whether a team with Trae as its best player can win a championship.  Trae is young enough he can still improve.  

3.  The Detroit title teams are the outlier in history.  Pretty much every other champion since the Showtime Lakers has had an MVP level performer.

4. I never said having an MVP level performer guarantees even a shot at a title, just that the last 30 years of NBA history shows it is a requirement to get one.  Not every MVP gets a title.  

5. No one said it is easy finding the right supporting cast.  What I did say it is it easier to find a supporting cast than an MVP.  There are so many fewer MVP caliber players!

6. Absolutely NO ONE questions that Jordan needed Pippen; Magic needed Worthy; Bird needed McHale; LeBron needed Wade/Kyrie/AD; Hakeem needed Clyde; Duncan needed the Admiral; Shaq needed Kobe; Steph need Klay; etc.

[Diesel]

6 hours ago, Packfill said:

A few things I will note:

1.  The premise of this thread is about winning a championship and what it takes to get there.

2.  No one said anything to discredit Trae.  It is absolutely fair to question whether a team with Trae as its best player can win a championship.  Trae is young enough he can still improve.  

3.  The Detroit title teams are the outlier in history.  Pretty much every other champion since the Showtime Lakers has had an MVP level performer.

4. I never said having an MVP level performer guarantees even a shot at a title, just that the last 30 years of NBA history shows it is a requirement to get one.  Not every MVP gets a title.  

5. No one said it is easy finding the right supporting cast.  What I did say it is it easier to find a supporting cast than an MVP.  There are so many fewer MVP caliber players!

6. Absolutely NO ONE questions that Jordan needed Pippen; Magic needed Worthy; Bird needed McHale; LeBron needed Wade/Kyrie/AD; Hakeem needed Clyde; Duncan needed the Admiral; Shaq needed Kobe; Steph need Klay; etc.

Who does Trae Have?

Until we find somebody who is that second in command here's what you do...

1.  Stop saying that Trae has to improve. 

2.  Work on the Detroit Model. 

You say that Detroit teams were an outlier.. I say three times?  With several strong attempts aside from them actually winning?

The Detroit team was not an outlier, they were a different model.  A team that was strong from Bottom to the top.   And for the Warriors first Chip, Steph didn't look like an MVP.