2023-24 Insider Information Thread

[warcore]

4 minutes ago, theheroatl said:

JJ is just really a worse shooting, more aggressive Dre. I don’t trust his handles just like I don’t trust Dre’s handles even in year 5.

No - JJ is a lot more fluid, has handles, and fantastic vision. Dre is doo doo in the handles and vision part. I see them as very different players. I think his vision is the biggest reason we need to keep him. He's our only front court option to play make. 

[Phunkabilly]

4 minutes ago, theheroatl said:

OO and AJ imo will not and should not be included on any trade. 
 

JJ Bufkin Hunter and Capela are it. They can be used. 
 

JJ, while athletic, doesn’t have as many skills as you would need for a starting 3-4. Maybe 3 and D but needs better 3 shooting.

JJ is just really a worse shooting, more aggressive Dre. I don’t trust his handles just like I don’t trust Dre’s handles even in year 5.

JJ has better court vision and is a MUCH better passer than Dre.  I agree that his three point shot needs to improve, but he has a good stroke.  I expect that part of his game to get much better this year.  He's also a better finisher than Dre, although not as good of a mid-range game.  Although frankly, I expect Snyder to push most of the guys to get away from the mid-range shot.

[Phunkabilly]

7 minutes ago, warcore said:

No - JJ is a lot more fluid, has handles, and fantastic vision. Dre is doo doo in the handles and vision part. I see them as very different players. I think his vision is the biggest reason we need to keep him. He's our only front court option to play make. 

Beat me to it, lol.

[theheroatl]

2 minutes ago, Phunkabilly said:

JJ has better court vision and is a MUCH better passer than Dre.  I agree that his three point shot needs to improve, but he has a good stroke.  I expect that part of his game to get much better this year.  He's also a better finisher than Dre, although not as good of a mid-range game.  Although frankly, I expect Snyder to push most of the guys to get away from the mid-range shot.

JJ is good on aggression and rebounding but he needs to come a long way on shooting outside of rim attacking. Developing shooting is often not a sure thing.

Without improved shooting other than rim slashing, it will be hard to give him a lot of minutes because that is scheme dependent for open basket lanes.

Edited July 19, 2023 by theheroatl

[kg01]

3 minutes ago, theheroatl said:

JJ is good on aggression and rebounding but he needs to come a long way on shooting outside of rim attacking. Developing shooting is often not a sure thing.

Without improved shooting other than rim slashing, it will be hard to give him a lot of minutes because that is scheme dependent for open basket lanes.

Respectfully, I disagree with just about all this.  JJ is our wildcard on both ends.  The fact that iRobot didn't want to play him is criminally negligent.  The warts you're seeing are related to the missed development time under the prior coach.

He's basically an ultra-athletic version of Slomo Anderson, which doesn't sound like high praise but it definitely is. 

[JeffS17]

44 minutes ago, Phunkabilly said:

My receipt:  I ain't giving up any of AJ, JJ, or OO for Siakam... I don't think he's worth it.  OO is ready for the starting role right now and I think he'll be one of the top 10 centers in the league by the end of the year.  JJ will be a very important role player for us by the end of the year, either as the starting 4 or as one of the top bench guys, and will be huge for us in the playoffs.  AJ may need a full year to develop, but I think he at least has a 50/50 chance of being a regular rotation player for us this year.  I know I'm in the minority, but even if we don't make any additional moves and assuming no catastrophic injuries, I think we'll be making some noise by the end of the year... maybe not as a top 3 seed, but nobody is gonna wanna play us, that's for sure.

Definitely a safe receipt.  No one is going to pull this out if all these guys never really develop into anything more than decent bench players.  Chances at consolidating them won't be as top of mind as if we trade them and they flourish, because we would never know the heights we could have reached if we did trade them for Siakam or whoever else.

Being optimistic about young prospects is normal, but it doesn't change the fact they don't pan out into anything.  Imagine how upset Hawks fans would have been if we traded Cam+Hunter+salary and a first for a known all-star like 2-3 years ago.  Two promising young players and a pick for an all-star -- my guess is more than half of us would have been really upset and called it an overpay, citing potential, salary differential, etc.  And I think that would have been a mistake based on what we knew at the time, even if we might have been better off for it given what we know now.  Hind sighting is fool proof and easy... I try to judge GMs on how well they assess risks and probability which can only really be evaluated over a long period, not an individual move.

[Phunkabilly]

2 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Respectfully, I disagree with just about all this.  JJ is our wildcard on both ends.  The fact that iRobot didn't want to play him is criminally negligent.  The warts you're seeing are related to the missed development time under the prior coach.

He's basically an ultra-athletic version of Slomo Anderson, which doesn't sound like high praise but it definitely is. 

Well, I think hero is right in that JJ does need to improve his three point shooting.  I am optimistic that he'll at least become a 35%+ guy, although he might never get to the 40% levels.  But the great thing about JJ is that he can positively impact the game in so many different ways, even if his shot isn't falling.  The incredibly annoying thing with Dre to me is that he flat out disappears far too often.  If his shot isn't falling, he's about worthless on the offensive end of the floor.

[bleachkit]

Seems like Hawks aren't budging on their offer. Good for them. Siakam ain't nothing special. He's aite. 

[theheroatl]

7 minutes ago, Phunkabilly said:

Well, I think hero is right in that JJ does need to improve his three point shooting.  I am optimistic that he'll at least become a 35%+ guy, although he might never get to the 40% levels.  But the great thing about JJ is that he can positively impact the game in so many different ways, even if his shot isn't falling.  The incredibly annoying thing with Dre to me is that he flat out disappears far too often.  If his shot isn't falling, he's about worthless on the offensive end of the floor.

Don't get me wrong.. JJ got skills that we need, he just needs to develop 

 

HOWEVER, I choose to keep AJ and OO over JJ and Bufkin if a star is available to trade for.

Edited July 19, 2023 by theheroatl

[ABH]

4 minutes ago, theheroatl said:

Don't get me wrong.. JJ got skills that we need, he just needs to develop 

 

HOWEVER, I choose to keep AJ and OO over JJ and Bufkin if a star is available to trade for.

Not me..I'd give AJ all day long

[thecampster]

34 minutes ago, theheroatl said:

OO and AJ imo will not and should not be included on any trade. 
 

JJ Bufkin Hunter and Capela are it. They can be used. 
 

JJ, while athletic, doesn’t have as many skills as you would need for a starting 3-4. Maybe 3 and D but needs better 3 shooting.

JJ is just really a worse shooting, more aggressive Dre. I don’t trust his handles just like I don’t trust Dre’s handles even in year 5.

WTF...I was accepting what you were saying (not agreeing but accepting) until you said this.  JJ is far better with the basketball in his hands than Dre. Its not even close. What the Frog man...WTF!!!

https://3stepsbasket.com/player/deandre-hunter/vs/jalen-johnson?season=nba23

[thecampster]

Now remember, the above takes the full season into account and is not isolating it down to the last 15 games where he was much better.  Ya'll are sleeping hard on JJ.  His value on the floor shows greater than Hunter in statistical matchups.  Numbers rarely lie.

[theheroatl]

4 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Now remember, the above takes the full season into account and is not isolating it down to the last 15 games where he was much better.  Ya'll are sleeping hard on JJ.  His value on the floor shows greater than Hunter in statistical matchups.  Numbers rarely lie.

huh.. look at his turnover rate lol his handles have little to do with those highlighted stats camp

you bolded the handles part and blanked on his turnover rate in the rebuttal

Edited July 19, 2023 by theheroatl

[thecampster]

and just for poops and snickers

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

I don't think we're getting Siakam and if we do i'm convinced that none of AJ, OO, or JJ will be involved.  

The timing of it all and the need tells me it may be:

CC, Hunter, 1st, Bufkin.  with a third team involved. 

...Diesel... The outsider

[thecampster]

3 minutes ago, theheroatl said:

huh.. look at his turnover rate lol his handles have little to do with those highlighted stats camp

you bolded the handles part and blanked on his turnover rate in the rebuttal

Again, I can't separate it out by last 15 games.  His numbers get some fudging due to garbage time early in the season. But he handles the ball much better than Dre....I'd never trust Dre to lead the break....you want the ball in Jalen's hands going down hill.

Edited July 19, 2023 by thecampster

[theheroatl]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

The timing of it all and the need tells me it may be:

CC, Hunter, 1st, Bufkin.  with a third team involved. 

...Diesel... The outsider

that's believable... guess we'll see in August .. we got more time for some debate just to be sure

[thecampster]

OMG this is too fun.  JJ playing Point PF on his high school team on senior night.

 

 

[Phunkabilly]

14 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Definitely a safe receipt.  No one is going to pull this out if all these guys never really develop into anything more than decent bench players.  Chances at consolidating them won't be as top of mind as if we trade them and they flourish, because we would never know the heights we could have reached if we did trade them for Siakam or whoever else.

Being optimistic about young prospects is normal, but it doesn't change the fact they don't pan out into anything.  Imagine how upset Hawks fans would have been if we traded Cam+Hunter+salary and a first for a known all-star like 2-3 years ago.  Two promising young players and a pick for an all-star -- my guess is more than half of us would have been really upset and called it an overpay, citing potential, salary differential, etc.  And I think that would have been a mistake based on what we knew at the time, even if we might have been better off for it given what we know now.  Hind sighting is fool proof and easy... I try to judge GMs on how well they assess risks and probability which can only really be evaluated over a long period, not an individual move.

I totally get what you're saying.  It's kind of like Peter Griffin choosing between a boat and the mystery box...

HOWEVER, one distinction that I would make is that JJ, AJ, and OO are all ready to contribute RIGHT NOW.  At this time last year, I would've been willing to include JJ and AJ (although probably not OO), because they hadn't shown me that they were NBA ready yet.  However, I feel like all three of those guys are ready to be valuable contributors of a team competing for the championship.  And you need guys like that on cheap contracts to pair with your expensive stars.  IF we were going after a stud, I would be much more willing to part with any of those guys.  However, Siakam ain't at that level to me.  He's a fine player, for sure, but on a max or near-max contract, he will at best be market value.  To part with high value young guys who are ready to contribute right away, I'm gonna need a star that is gonna be a good value on a max contract... not a second or third tier star like Siakam.  With that said, Siakam is certainly an upgrade for this team, and I would be willing to part with any reasonable package that doesn't include Trae, DJ, OO, AJ or JJ.  If that's not enough to get it done, then I would just move on.

 

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, theheroatl said:

that's believable... guess we'll see in August .. we got more time for some debate just to be sure

I think that Toronto needs a future PG..  Dennis ain't it. 

I think we showcased his skillset in SL.   And Although his shooting was atrocious, that's usually the last thing to come around.   He made some very good passes.  His movement lives up to DJ 2.0.    All sides have cooled off until Bufkin is available.