2023-24 Insider Information Thread

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, NekiEcko said:

It seems you're not considering Ingram at all. However, we must entertain all options, including Ingram and others. Doing nothing could result in losing Trae, and currently, there aren't any better options available. Unless, of course, you're considering WLOC once more?

I agree change is needed but this feels like a move that is more likely to push Trae out the door than to lead to a better team.  I would all but write Ingram off and accept a lesser name player eagerly if it is someone like Jones or Murphy (to use the NO roster as an example).  A midrange shooting and slow moving (in terms of decisions and actions) scorer who needs the ball in his hands and isn't a plus defender seems like a recipe for failure as a partner with Trae.  

[kg01]

3 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

Which defender is included? Gotta be one for the trade to move the needle for me. 

Honestly, Dyson isn't enough for me.  Gotta be Jones. 

1 hour ago, theheroatl said:

I 100% agree. We have no dogs that hound teams defensively.

 

we have a team full of players worried about getting their stats.. whether they make it obvious or not.

Agreed.  And the funniest part is I can make a case that Trae, the one everyone brands as a stat-chaser, is the biggest defensive hound we have on the perimeter. 

[Hawkish]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

Scoring is what he does and this is truly horrific (SSS granted):

This is not what we need from our co-lead scorer:

This is not real good as a partner with Trae:

This is terrible:

This seems very ill-suited to the offense that I assume Quin wants to run:

Does this align to you?

Given his contract demands, I'm out on Ingram.  Not in the sense that I won't cheer for him if we trade for him and he lines up in a Hawks uniform but in the sense that I can't really see a scenario where it doesn't end up being a mistake.

I've said before that DJM and Ingram are extremely similar players.   That is a problem even if Ingram fits better with Trae by virtue of his height.  Fitting better isn't necessarily fitting well and I don't think you can double down on trading for an All-Star who is a bad fit with Trae and expecting the kinds of results we all want to see.

I’m also out on Ingram.

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

Scoring is what he does and this is truly horrific (SSS granted):

This is not what we need from our co-lead scorer:

This is not real good as a partner with Trae:

This is terrible:

This seems very ill-suited to the offense that I assume Quin wants to run:

Does this align to you?

Given his contract demands, I'm out on Ingram.  Not in the sense that I won't cheer for him if we trade for him and he lines up in a Hawks uniform but in the sense that I can't really see a scenario where it doesn't end up being a mistake.

I've said before that DJM and Ingram are extremely similar players.   That is a problem even if Ingram fits better with Trae by virtue of his height.  Fitting better isn't necessarily fitting well and I don't think you can double down on trading for an All-Star who is a bad fit with Trae and expecting the kinds of results we all want to see.

I’m also out on Ingram.

[theheroatl]

8 minutes ago, AHF said:

Scoring is what he does and this is truly horrific (SSS granted):

This is not what we need from our co-lead scorer:

This is not real good as a partner with Trae:

This is terrible:

This seems very ill-suited to the offense that I assume Quin wants to run:

Does this align to you?

Given his contract demands, I'm out on Ingram.  Not in the sense that I won't cheer for him if we trade for him and he lines up in a Hawks uniform but in the sense that I can't really see a scenario where it doesn't end up being a mistake.

I've said before that DJM and Ingram are extremely similar players.   That is a problem even if Ingram fits better with Trae by virtue of his height.  Fitting better isn't necessarily fitting well and I don't think you can double down on trading for an All-Star who is a bad fit with Trae and expecting the kinds of results we all want to see.

This is Siakam discussion deja vu……

[AHF]

1 minute ago, theheroatl said:

This is Siakam discussion deja vu……

How are Murray and Ingram different other than height?  The main difference I see is that Murray is more of threat from deep and Ingram shoots more midrange shots (which isn't a positive difference).

If we trade for Ingram and it works out great, I'll definite own being wrong here but I'd much rather have Siakam if the price is right than Ingram.   This is a combination of his fit and his future salary.

[NekiEcko]

This brings us back to the initial question: which player(s) will step up to assist the Hawks now? It's important to remember that we lack draft capital and, aside from a few, the players are not meeting expectations.

[KB21]

30 minutes ago, NekiEcko said:

It seems you're not considering Ingram at all. However, we must entertain all options, including Ingram and others. Doing nothing could result in losing Trae, and currently, there aren't any better options available. Unless, of course, you're considering WLOC once more?

I'm not interested in making a bad move just because of this premise that we have to do something.

[KB21]

26 minutes ago, AHF said:

I agree change is needed but this feels like a move that is more likely to push Trae out the door than to lead to a better team.  I would all but write Ingram off and accept a lesser name player eagerly if it is someone like Jones or Murphy (to use the NO roster as an example).  A midrange shooting and slow moving (in terms of decisions and actions) scorer who needs the ball in his hands and isn't a plus defender seems like a recipe for failure as a partner with Trae.  

When you also take into account that Jalen Johnson likely needs to have his role INCREASED as a secondary on the ball creator in the upcoming season, it really doesn't make any sense to add a guy like Ingram to the mix.  The need someone who is going to be a defender and a catch and shoot floor spacer.  

[macdaddy]

I used to be really high on Ingram but now i'm a little iffy.  Where is he going to play?  I guess we'll move Hunter to the bench?  Or play them together maybe?

One thing i'll say is Trae will get BI plenty of open 3s.   Ingram and Hunter have the same career 3% but Ingram has shot better than 38% in three seasons.  His attempts have gone way down though.  Still his two seasons with high attempts were really good.  Having an offensive stud is something we need.  Not totally sure this is where we want to drop all our money but if Quin can make it work i'm down.

[KB21]

8 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I used to be really high on Ingram but now i'm a little iffy.  Where is he going to play?  I guess we'll move Hunter to the bench?  Or play them together maybe?

One thing i'll say is Trae will get BI plenty of open 3s.   Ingram and Hunter have the same career 3% but Ingram has shot better than 38% in three seasons.  His attempts have gone way down though.  Still his two seasons with high attempts were really good.  Having an offensive stud is something we need.  Not totally sure this is where we want to drop all our money but if Quin can make it work i'm down.

It's not like his current coach hasn't tried:

Willie has been pushing Ingram to shoot more threes.  He just doesn't do it.  He'd rather dribble the ball into the mid range and take a much harder shot.  

[REHawksFan]

37 minutes ago, AHF said:

The main difference I see is that Murray is more of threat from deep and Ingram shoots more midrange shots (which isn't a positive difference).

I'm not sure I agree with this and not sure it's a fair criticism.  

Pre Quin DJM Shot Type:

• 6.3% 3pt
• 17.4%
• 20.4% 
• 16.8%

Post Quin DJM Shot Type:

• 30.0% 3pt
• 37.7%

 

Brandon Ingram Shot Type:

• 13.8% 3pt
• 12.9%
• 35.1%
• 34.1%
• 22.3%
• 19.5%
• 22.9%

In four of the seven seasons, Ingram shot more 3s than DJM ever did prior to being coached by Quin.  To say that DJ shoots more as a matter of fact is not exactly fair, imo.  I think IF BI is coachable as DJ is, he'll also get up a higher % of 3s just like DJ did under Q.  And we at least have proof of concept with BI that he can do it and still shoot a high % as his highest 3pt % is in the two years that he attempted the most.  

 

I'm down on BI because I think his pay has outpaced his performance and the perception of BI in general is greater than the reality.  But I don't think saying he won't shoot 3s like Murray is a fair criticism. 

 

[KB21]

Then why hasn't he shot more in New Orleans considering that Willie Green specifically called upon him to do it?

[macdaddy]

4 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

I'm down on BI because I think his pay has outpaced his performance and the perception of BI in general is greater than the reality

this is my concern too.  but at some point we have to try to get elite players.  BI is only 26.  

[JeffS17]

13 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Then why hasn't he shot more in New Orleans considering that Willie Green specifically called upon him to do it?

He got no one to get him good looks and a stagnant offensive system with no good facilitating PG or player to break down the defense and play make.  He would get plenty of opportunities from three playing with Trae.  You can't pull up a bballref page and predict the future based on the past when circumstances change dramatically. 

Every single criticism you guys have about Ingram's game can be said about the first 4 years of De'Andre Hunter and Quin had him taking more threes at his highest 3P% last year.  Players can develop new habits-- if we don't trust our coaching staff, no player is going to be a difference maker coming to Atlanta.

[REHawksFan]

18 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Then why hasn't he shot more in New Orleans considering that Willie Green specifically called upon him to do it?

He avg 6+ 3pt attempts per game with Lonzo Ball as the pg.  And then Lonzo wasn't the pg and he fell off a cliff.  In the years where he took a lot, he also led the team in c/s 3pt attempts one year and was 2nd the other year.  That tells me he'll take them when he's set up to take them.  If he's dribbling on his own and has to create, he's more apt to dribble into the mid range and take the tougher shot.  

I don't see why playing with Trae wouldn't create a ton of opportunities for him to take c/s 3s.  He's probably not ever going to eliminate the mid range, but there's no reason to think he can't change the shot allocation drastically.  

[kg01]

19 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

.... 

-- if we don't trust our coaching staff, no player is going to be a difference maker coming to Atlanta.

Heh.  No doubt jeffe knows KB is Quin's #1 fan, so this comment is a sneaky haymaker.

I see you, jeffe.  I see you.  

[REHawksFan]

Just to expound on the PG issue with BI...

In the 19-20 season, BI avg 6.1 3pt fga and shot 39.1%.  He had Lonzo Ball and Jrue Holiday as his PGs. He was assisted on 135 jump shots.  

In the 23-24 season, BI avg 3.8 3pt fga and shot 37%.  He had CJ McCollum as his main PG.  He was assisted on 75 jump shots.  

That's 60 fewer assisted makes on jumpers this year compared to when he had Ball and Holiday as his PGs.  

 

If you look at pullup off the dribble vs c/s jumpers:

19-20 with 2 pgs:  423 c/s and 199 off dribble

23-24 with 0 pgs:  155 c/s and 305 off dribble

 

You can't ignore the lack of PG for NO the last few seasons.  

 

[AHF]

59 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

I'm not sure I agree with this and not sure it's a fair criticism.  

Pre Quin DJM Shot Type:

• 6.3% 3pt
• 17.4%
• 20.4% 
• 16.8%

Post Quin DJM Shot Type:

• 30.0% 3pt
• 37.7%

 

Brandon Ingram Shot Type:

• 13.8% 3pt
• 12.9%
• 35.1%
• 34.1%
• 22.3%
• 19.5%
• 22.9%

In four of the seven seasons, Ingram shot more 3s than DJM ever did prior to being coached by Quin.  To say that DJ shoots more as a matter of fact is not exactly fair, imo.  I think IF BI is coachable as DJ is, he'll also get up a higher % of 3s just like DJ did under Q.  And we at least have proof of concept with BI that he can do it and still shoot a high % as his highest 3pt % is in the two years that he attempted the most.  

 

I'm down on BI because I think his pay has outpaced his performance and the perception of BI in general is greater than the reality.  But I don't think saying he won't shoot 3s like Murray is a fair criticism. 

 

You are talking about a transformation that would make him look more like DJM.  We already know DJM and Trae don't work together.  So I don't see that as a great thing and have kind of already built that level of transformation into my assessment of a potential deal for Ingram.  DJM still pounds the ball and needs it in his hands under Quin and I think the same would be likely for Ingram.  That doesn't work very well.  So I'm not saying he won't shoot 3's like Murray.  I'm saying that shooting 3's like Murray won't make him a good fit just like Murray isn't a good fit with Trae.

Paying $50M/year for that seems unwise especially when it does nothing to fix his defense.  To that end, I agree with perception being greater than reality because his greatest value is as a volume scorer and that tends to get people overpaid.

[REHawksFan]

23 minutes ago, AHF said:

You are talking about a transformation that would make him look more like DJM.  We already know DJM and Trae don't work together.  So I don't see that as a great thing and have kind of already built that level of transformation into my assessment of a potential deal for Ingram.  DJM still pounds the ball and needs it in his hands under Quin and I think the same would be likely for Ingram.  That doesn't work very well.  So I'm not saying he won't shoot 3's like Murray.  I'm saying that shooting 3's like Murray won't make him a good fit just like Murray isn't a good fit with Trae.

Paying $50M/year for that seems unwise especially when it does nothing to fix his defense.  To that end, I agree with perception being greater than reality because his greatest value is as a volume scorer and that tends to get people overpaid.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for BI on the Hawks for the reasons I spelled out in my original response.  With that said, I'm interested in the bold above because I don't really view BI and DJM as the same player, as it appears you do.  

In SA, DJM was Top 5 in touches per game, Top 10 in Time of Possession, and Top 20 in Dribbles per Touch.  You paired him with Trae who was already Top 5 in all those categories.  And for the most part, both players have remained very highly ranked in these categories (top 5% of the NBA), even if DJ's raw numbers have dropped off some.  You took a ball dominant PG and paired him with a ball dominant PG and well, it didn't work.  

But BI isn't ball dominant in the same way as DJM  He doesn't play the same position and doesn't require the ball nearly as much as DJM.  This year, he ranks 47th in touches per game, 46th in TOP, and around 140th in dribbles per touch. And that's without having a dominant PG to play with.  

So I don't really see the "your turn, my turn" issue with BI and Trae.  Seems like they would work well together on offense.  

   

[JeffS17]

If we can get Herb by letting NO dump Ingram onto us then it is worth it imo.  Send out something like Murray + capela/hunter + AJ and it's worth it to me.  You don't have to pay Ingram $50M if no one else is willing to pay him $50M.  I'm less concerned about that than some here -- the new cap will be in full effect and teams aren't throwing massive bags at guys that aren't tier 1 stars, and I trust Landry will negotiate down to the most team friendly deal possible IF we want to retain him.  Win/win for both teams imo.