2023-24 Insider Information Thread

[Spud2nique]

17 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

I

Well that’s clearly all that matters isn’t it?

[macdaddy]

I used to worry about losing guys for nothing but you gain cap space and it sure as hell beats paying someone to take them later on or being stuck with Tobias Harris.   One year of BI is fine with me.  If it goes well he'll want to stay.  if he doesn't, so Be It. 

[kg01]

25 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

If Dyson Vacuums and a couple of 1sts are the additionals, I think the deal has legs.  Daniels may not sound like much but he might be the perfect Eric Snow to attach to Trae's last ride. 

Just snuck that in, huh?  I'm the only one that caught this multi-laywred line?

9 minutes ago, Dragitoff said:

I was just about to post the same thing.  Dyson's shot is shaky, but he's got the size and POA defense we desperately need.  He's a legit 6'7" combo guard who can attack and defend.  That's a skillset we don't currently have on the roster.  I could even see him find his way into the starting lineup between Trae and BI as our primary POA defender. 

Yeah, Ingram isn't my first thought as far as making us better.  But if it's Murray for Ingram and Daniels, I can see it as Ingram replacing Murray and Daniels giving us something we've lacked.  So, although folks like @KB21 are arguably right in citing Ingram not being the defensive presence we need, the combination of the two can arguably be a net gain for us.

We'd still have work to do though, which I assume the front office knows.  We simply can't have the current C rotation next year.  We just can't.  Can't! 

[Dragitoff]

25 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Just snuck that in, huh?  I'm the only one that caught this multi-laywred line?

Yeah, Ingram isn't my first thought as far as making us better.  But if it's Murray for Ingram and Daniels, I can see it as Ingram replacing Murray and Daniels giving us something we've lacked.  So, although folks like @KB21 are arguably right in citing Ingram not being the defensive presence we need, the combination of the two can arguably be a net gain for us.

We'd still have work to do though, which I assume the front office knows.  We simply can't have the current C rotation next year.  We just can't.  Can't! 

We'd have to add salary to Murray to make the deal work so I'd see Capela or Hunter in the deal to match salary.  If OO is included, that nets us a better return.  I think Murray and OO might be the only chance we have of getting Herb back.  Even then, we'd be crucified for that deal even if it makes us a better team in reality because everyone knows you win games on paper.

Edited May 8 by Dragitoff

[KB21]

12 minutes ago, Dragitoff said:

We'd have to add salary to Murray to make the deal work so I'd see Capela or Hunter in the deal to match salary.  If OO is included, that nets us a better return.  I think Murray and OO might be the only chance we have of getting Herb back.  Even then, we'd be crucified for that deal even if it makes us a better team in reality because everyone knows you win games on paper.

You better have a plan at center that doesn't involve continuing with Capela or drafting a certain lumbering big in the draft.  

[RedDawg#8]

46 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I used to worry about losing guys for nothing but you gain cap space and it sure as hell beats paying someone to take them later on or being stuck with Tobias Harris.   One year of BI is fine with me.  If it goes well he'll want to stay.  if he doesn't, so Be It. 

My thoughts, I hate the idea that you can’t trade for an expiring. I would rather have the choice of cap space or sign and trade than be stuck with a long term deal, unless it’s better than market value.

[Dragitoff]

10 minutes ago, KB21 said:

You better have a plan at center that doesn't involve continuing with Capela or drafting a certain lumbering big in the draft.  

I agree; however, I don't know that OO as our starting center is as much of a sure thing as it seemed prior to last season.  OO didn't play poorly, but he also did nothing in my mind to raise his stock.  Clint's regression should've opened the door wide for him to gain a foothold as the current and future starter, but I don't think he did that.  He's always been undersized for the position, but his switchability potential made up for that.  If we're trying to get "bigger" as a team, starting a guy smaller than our already slightly undersized center at the same position goes against that. 

[KB21]

6 minutes ago, Dragitoff said:

I agree; however, I don't know that OO as our starting center is as much of a sure thing as it seemed prior to last season.  OO didn't play poorly, but he also did nothing in my mind to raise his stock.  Clint's regression should've opened the door wide for him to gain a foothold as the current and future starter, but I don't think he did that.  He's always been undersized for the position, but his switchability potential made up for that.  If we're trying to get "bigger" as a team, starting a guy smaller than our already slightly undersized center at the same position goes against that. 

I really wonder how much of OO not being made a starter has to do with just how much Quin wants him to do on the court.  OO has gone from Nate McMillan's very simplistic defensive scheme where he wasn't asked to do much to now he has Quin, who will want him to play drop against this team and switch more against that team.  Then the injury happened.

[Dragitoff]

3 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I really wonder how much of OO not being made a starter has to do with just how much Quin wants him to do on the court.  OO has gone from Nate McMillan's very simplistic defensive scheme where he wasn't asked to do much to now he has Quin, who will want him to play drop against this team and switch more against that team.  Then the injury happened.

Definitely valid questions that I'm not smart enough to answer.  I just hear the team publicly talking about getting bigger and OO did little to improve his chances as our starting center last year when a prime opportunity to presented itself.  Those two things make me feel like he's less locked in as our future center than maybe he once was.  He's also starting to give me Hunter vibes with injuries.  We should really evaluate our training staff with all the injuries last season.  Geez. 

[Dragitoff]

One more point I failed to make.  OO at center absolutely can work if we have the right personnel around him at the 2 and 3.  Jalen is fine for what you want size wise at the 4 and he can rebound well for the position.  He has the potential to switch as well.  If you get size at the 3 via draft (Rissacher, Buzelis, etc), trade, or FA, you could be good long-term. 

Edited May 8 by Dragitoff

[bird_dirt]

5 minutes ago, Dragitoff said:

Definitely valid questions that I'm not smart enough to answer.  I just hear the team publicly talking about getting bigger and OO did little to improve his chances as our starting center last year when a prime opportunity to presented itself.  Those two things make me feel like he's less locked in as our future center than maybe he once was.  He's also starting to give me Hunter vibes with injuries.  We should really evaluate our training staff with all the injuries last season.  Geez. 

Of course we could keep OO and still get bigger by moving him to PF and JJ to SF, then Dre or BI to SG. 

[terrell]

4 hours ago, AtLaS said:

So then you gave up Murray for nothing.  And lose Ingram for nothing.  If he doesn't fit and we are losing, flipping his expiring contract with his money demands at the deadline is going to be pennies on the dollar.

We know what this team needs.  It's defense.  Ingram doesn't help.  I don't need a one-year rental to find that out.  He's another slow, lazy, zero impact player like Hunter.  Sure he has a pretty good offensive skillset, but that's not what this team needs.  If we were building around Murray or Jrue Holiday maybe he would be a better fit.

This......

[Dragitoff]

3 minutes ago, bird_dirt said:

Of course we could keep OO and still get bigger by moving him to PF and JJ to SF, then Dre or BI to SG. 

I don't think Hunter's knees allow him to guard 2's anymore.  I also don't know that JJ shoots enough yet for him to be the primary 3.  Watching Mitchell dismantle Orlando's elite defense and length because they didn't have guards that could defend him and Garland both was part of Orlando's undoing.  It's a big part of why our defense is so bad.  Trae's defensive shortcomings are well known, but Murray's rep as a POA defender was either wildly wrong or he slipped.  I'm not a defensive metric guru so I don't know which it was.  All I know is he struggled to consistently be the defender he was supposed to be for us.

[JeffS17]

Running this roster back with DJ is a non-starter, as we have plenty of data to see that does not work.  The question is not "is Ingram a perfect fit", the question is "is Ingram a better fit that will improve the team while getting assets in addition.  Throw in Dyson or another young talent and that's a very valuable trade imo.

Is it the best move available to us?  I don't know.  But if it's do this or do nothing, I'm absolutely rolling the dice on Ingram + assets.  I have more faith the coaching staff will get him where we need him, particularly given he will be in a contract year.  DJ is such a poor fit with Trae, even a lesser talent but better fit could lead to more wins.  I think Ingram is a superior talent and better fit.

[KB21]

27 minutes ago, Dragitoff said:

Definitely valid questions that I'm not smart enough to answer.  I just hear the team publicly talking about getting bigger and OO did little to improve his chances as our starting center last year when a prime opportunity to presented itself.  Those two things make me feel like he's less locked in as our future center than maybe he once was.  He's also starting to give me Hunter vibes with injuries.  We should really evaluate our training staff with all the injuries last season.  Geez. 

I'm not buying the idea that he failed when given the chance to start.  He averaged 16.1 PPG, 8.5 RPG, with a .723 TS% as a starter.  It's a small sample size, but it's not like he shit the bed when given the chance.  I think it is far more likely that there are some things Quin wants him to do that he (Quin) doesn't quite have confidence in him doing on the court yet.  

[KB21]

11 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Running this roster back with DJ is a non-starter, as we have plenty of data to see that does not work.  The question is not "is Ingram a perfect fit", the question is "is Ingram a better fit that will improve the team while getting assets in addition.  Throw in Dyson or another young talent and that's a very valuable trade imo.

Is it the best move available to us?  I don't know.  But if it's do this or do nothing, I'm absolutely rolling the dice on Ingram + assets.  I have more faith the coaching staff will get him where we need him, particularly given he will be in a contract year.  DJ is such a poor fit with Trae, even a lesser talent but better fit could lead to more wins.  I think Ingram is a superior talent and better fit.

It's a deal that's made because it's something different.  The fit isn't there unless Ingram miraculously becomes a guy who is willing to be a spot up catch and shoot guy 55-60% of the time.  It does not help our defense and doesn't move the needle on offense.  When you combine that with the fact that he's going to want a max extension and will probably get it from some sucker, it's a complete nonstarter.  

[Dragitoff]

8 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I'm not buying the idea that he failed when given the chance to start.  He averaged 16.1 PPG, 8.5 RPG, with a .723 TS% as a starter.  It's a small sample size, but it's not like he shit the bed when given the chance.  I think it is far more likely that there are some things Quin wants him to do that he (Quin) doesn't quite have confidence in him doing on the court yet.  

I wasn't referring to the few games he started.  I was making a blanket statement over the entirety of the season.  He started slowly and did get better as the season progressed, but he missed plenty of games due to injury and didn't make the jump most of us expected him to make.  Clint clearly regressed this year and it created an opening for OO that I don't think he fully took advantage of.  I'd still take him over Capela even next season.  I just think it's less of a given that he's the long-term answer for this squad than maybe it was this same time last year. 

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I'm not buying the idea that he failed when given the chance to start.  He averaged 16.1 PPG, 8.5 RPG, with a .723 TS% as a starter.  It's a small sample size, but it's not like he shit the bed when given the chance.  I think it is far more likely that there are some things Quin wants him to do that he (Quin) doesn't quite have confidence in him doing on the court yet.  

I agree.  I put this in the "he hasn't earned it yet based on what Quin wants" not him having totally failed.  In fact, I was really hoping he was seize the starting role and Wally Pip CC when **again** he suffered a season ending injury that took that off the table.  

It is an open question whether Quin buys into him as a starter and whether he can stay healthy enough to be relied on in that role.  My prediction of JJ and OO finishing the season as starters was only half right.  At least JJ delivered last year and returned when he got hurt.

14 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Running this roster back with DJ is a non-starter, as we have plenty of data to see that does not work.  The question is not "is Ingram a perfect fit", the question is "is Ingram a better fit that will improve the team while getting assets in addition.  Throw in Dyson or another young talent and that's a very valuable trade imo.

Is it the best move available to us?  I don't know.  But if it's do this or do nothing, I'm absolutely rolling the dice on Ingram + assets.  I have more faith the coaching staff will get him where we need him, particularly given he will be in a contract year.  DJ is such a poor fit with Trae, even a lesser talent but better fit could lead to more wins.  I think Ingram is a superior talent and better fit.

The question is not whether Ingram is a better fit but whether trading for him is the best move available to us.  I agree that Ingram + assets for DJM and filler is better than doing absolutely nothing but I'm far from convinced it will be the best move possible.  Best move available is the real question.

[KB21]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

I agree.  I put this in the "he hasn't earned it yet based on what Quin wants" not him having totally failed.  In fact, I was really hoping he was seize the starting role and Wally Pip CC when **again** he suffered a season ending injury that took that off the table.  

It is an open question whether Quin buys into him as a starter and whether he can stay healthy enough to be relied on in that role.  My prediction of JJ and OO finishing the season as starters was only half right.  At least JJ delivered last year and returned when he got hurt.

The question is not whether Ingram is a better fit but whether trading for him is the best move available to us.  I agree that Ingram + assets for DJM and filler is better than doing absolutely nothing but I'm far from convinced it will be the best move possible.  Best move available is the real question.

I feel like we would be having a similar conversation about JJ if the Hawks hadn't done a poor job with its roster construction and left him as the only PF that could play on the roster.  Quin pushed him, but he had no choice but to play him.  

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I feel like we would be having a similar conversation about JJ if the Hawks hadn't done a poor job with its roster construction and left him as the only PF that could play on the roster.  Quin pushed him, but he had no choice but to play him.  

I feel like JJ would have seized the starting job when there was a regressing veteran ahead of him who didn't fit Snyder's desire for a mobile big.  JJ in fact did take the starting job away from Bey but young players should take the job away from underperforming vets.  When they don't do it year after year, there is only so long you can blame the coach for that (often the vets are just better).  OO needs to take the job ASAP if he ever wants to start in Atlanta.