I hope the Siakam deal fails to go through.

[givemesome1ce1]

I just don’t think it makes sense for the Hawks to get Siakam. There are just so many questionable things about it. 
 

First, what we have to give up. You can’t give up Onyeka because he’s obviously going to be the starting center of a Siakam deal happens. Capela and Siakam spacing would be terrible. And it would be pretty awful to trade a guy who was top 10 in blocks despite coming off the bench. He could be amazing in a starting role.You can’t give up Jalen. His skill set mirrors Siakam which makes him a very likely candidate in a trade, but he’s also the best perimeter defender we have on the team. There is a possibility he could be huge somewhere and be an already better player than he currently is right now, especially if he improves his 3pt shot.
 

You can’t give up AJ, who is being ridiculously treated like an add-on by a lot of people in the hawks community. He had 2 game winners, almost had a 50/40/90 season, and saved the beginning of last season when we basically had no spacing. He has shown he can be a three level scorer at NINETEEN years old and could improve even more. AJ could be our best wing player in the future. You can’t even give up on Bufkin. He improved every summer league game running the offense as a point guard (a role he usually isn’t suited for). He showed great defense throughout the summer league and could be the key that could make the Trae-Dejounte stagger work. 
 

The only young player that probably makes sense to give up is Saddiq Bey and even so, his contribution was important to the team as it helped provided the shooting and spacing this team desperately needed for the whole season. 
 

Even if we get Siakam, most people have not been able to explain on here how Dejounte and Siakam (two below average three point shooters) would be able to work together. Someone will say “Great players will always make it work!”, but that’s not a real answer. The spacing and shooting is going to be real concern. And how are we going to pay Siakam the max? Should we even pay Siakam the max at 30 years old? That could be one of the worst contracts in the league in a few years.

And what if Siakam decides to walk in free agency? Someone may say that we have a bunch of cap space now, but I see that as we just wasted picks and a young player for absolutely nothing. 
 

I get there are a lot of older impatient hawks fans who want to win now, but those fans haven’t been able to answer any of those questions above. I rather us just go into the season with an extra POA defender and see what happens. Let the young guys play and let them grow into great players this year. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

8 hours ago, givemesome1ce1 said:

I just don’t think it makes sense for the Hawks to get Siakam. There are just so many questionable things about it. 
 

First, what we have to give up. You can’t give up Onyeka because he’s obviously going to be the starting center of a Siakam deal happens. Capela and Siakam spacing would be terrible. And it would be pretty awful to trade a guy who was top 10 in blocks despite coming off the bench. He could be amazing in a starting role.You can’t give up Jalen. His skill set mirrors Siakam which makes him a very likely candidate in a trade, but he’s also the best perimeter defender we have on the team. There is a possibility he could be huge somewhere and be an already better player than he currently is right now, especially if he improves his 3pt shot.
 

You can’t give up AJ, who is being ridiculously treated like an add-on by a lot of people in the hawks community. He had 2 game winners, almost had a 50/40/90 season, and saved the beginning of last season when we basically had no spacing. He has shown he can be a three level scorer at NINETEEN years old and could improve even more. AJ could be our best wing player in the future. You can’t even give up on Bufkin. He improved every summer league game running the offense as a point guard (a role he usually isn’t suited for). He showed great defense throughout the summer league and could be the key that could make the Trae-Dejounte stagger work. 
 

The only young player that probably makes sense to give up is Saddiq Bey and even so, his contribution was important to the team as it helped provided the shooting and spacing this team desperately needed for the whole season. 
 

Even if we get Siakam, most people have not been able to explain on here how Dejounte and Siakam (two below average three point shooters) would be able to work together. Someone will say “Great players will always make it work!”, but that’s not a real answer. The spacing and shooting is going to be real concern. And how are we going to pay Siakam the max? Should we even pay Siakam the max at 30 years old? That could be one of the worst contracts in the league in a few years.

And what if Siakam decides to walk in free agency? Someone may say that we have a bunch of cap space now, but I see that as we just wasted picks and a young player for absolutely nothing. 
 

I get there are a lot of older impatient hawks fans who want to win now, but those fans haven’t been able to answer any of those questions above. I rather us just go into the season with an extra POA defender and see what happens. Let the young guys play and let them grow into great players this year. 

 

LOL . . . let me take a shot at it then, before I go to work.

 

First, what we have to give up. You can’t give up Onyeka because he’s obviously going to be the starting center of a Siakam deal happens. Capela and Siakam spacing would be terrible. And it would be pretty awful to trade a guy who was top 10 in blocks despite coming off the bench. He could be amazing in a starting role.

I don't think anyone has talked about giving up Okongwu. Of the 3 kids, he's probably the most important right now.

 

You can’t give up Jalen. His skill set mirrors Siakam which makes him a very likely candidate in a trade, but he’s also the best perimeter defender we have on the team. There is a possibility he could be huge somewhere and be an already better player than he currently is right now, especially if he improves his 3pt shot.

I'm a huge supporter of Jalen Johnson.  No, his skill set does not mirror Siakam because Siakam is a 3 level scorer and is a monster in the paint off the dribble.  Jalen's 3 ball is terrible right now, and needs a lot of work.  I like JJ's ability to pass the ball, and his weak side defense is pretty good right now.  Man defense still needs a lot of work.

 

You can’t give up AJ, who is being ridiculously treated like an add-on by a lot of people in the hawks community. He had 2 game winners, almost had a 50/40/90 season, and saved the beginning of last season when we basically had no spacing. He has shown he can be a three level scorer at NINETEEN years old and could improve even more.

AJ has the most potential out of all of our kids, with the way he can shoot and score the ball.  But to maximize the potential of AJ, someone has to go.  Either Hunter has to go, Bogi has to go, or DJ has to go.  As long as those guys are on this roster, AJ will simply be a part time shooter off the bench, with his value being maximized when someone is hurt.  The 3 guys above are signed through 2026 at least.

AJ will have to be head and shoulders above those 3, to get significant playing time.  If the Hawks value AJ, I fully understand that. But either 1 or possibly 2 of these guys have to go.

 

You can’t even give up on Bufkin. He improved every summer league game running the offense as a point guard (a role he usually isn’t suited for). He showed great defense throughout the summer league and could be the key that could make the Trae-Dejounte stagger work. 

OK, now you're reaching.  We just got Bufkin. And once again, the guy who is playing his position is DJ and possibly AJ.  So where is he going to play?  He's not a point guard, so I personally don't want him at backup PG.  If you play him at the 2, you're cutting into AJ's minutes.  So when and where does Bufkin play?  He's definitely expendable.

 

The only young player that probably makes sense to give up is Saddiq Bey and even so, his contribution was important to the team as it helped provided the shooting and spacing this team desperately needed for the whole season.

LOL . . so you give up the young guy that is probably most suited to help us win NOW?  He'll most likely go in a trade, because he's going to get pretty good value on his next contract as well.  But Bey is a difference maker right now.  He's definitely a trade piece though.

 

Even if we get Siakam, most people have not been able to explain on here how Dejounte and Siakam (two below average three point shooters) would be able to work together. Someone will say “Great players will always make it work!”, but that’s not a real answer. The spacing and shooting is going to be real concern.

Siakam is a scorer, who can also get to the FT line.  Only Trae has shown the ability to get to the FT line on this team.  And Siakam's outside shot is competent enough to play his position. Siakam's ability to pass the ball to make others better, is the element that is not talked about enough about his game.  For all of the people that want Trae to play more off the ball, a guy like Siakam gives him the ability to do just that.

Most important, we would now have a 3rd guy to get the ball to in critical situations.  Instead of hoping that Trae or DJ can beat their man off the dribble, those two could play off of Siakam to get better shots, or Siakam himself could score off the dribble.

Also, in late game situations, this means we can have Trae - DJ - Bogi - Siakam - Okongwu out on the court.  Or if you want to go small with shooters:  Trae - DJ - Bogi - Bey ( if still here ) - Siakam ( as a small ball center )

Siakam's versatility to play both the 4 and 5 spot, makes him extremely valuable with our current group of stars.

 

And how are we going to pay Siakam the max? Should we even pay Siakam the max at 30 years old? That could be one of the worst contracts in the league in a few years. And what if Siakam decides to walk in free agency? Someone may say that we have a bunch of cap space now, but I see that as we just wasted picks and a young player for absolutely nothing. 

To me, this is the ONLY REASON not to bring Siakam on. Siakam is a high level player that deserves the max.  But there is legit concern that he could walk next summer.  But if the Hawks are willing to max him out, he'd be dumb as hell to walk, because no other team will be able to give him the type of money we could.  And he wouldn't be able to find his way back to Toronto.  All of this posturing coming from "Siakam's camp", is him wanting to get the best deal possible.  Right now, that is with Toronto.

Most of your star players in the league are at their peak in their late 20s/early 30s.  And they really don't start to decline until after age 33 - 34.  Even then, they're still very close to their peak as a player.

• Jimmy Butler - 33
• Steph Curry - 35
• Kawhi Leonard - 32
• Kevin Durant - 34
• Damian Lillard - 33
• Paul George - 33

So Siakam at age 35 is not a concern to me.  His skill set as a guy who can score off the dribble, and as a passer, isn't going away anytime soon.

Edited July 18, 2023 by TheNorthCydeRises

[thecampster]

I'm not a fan of trading away assets for overpriced vets (see James Harden drama).

 

Siakam is a very good player.  If he becomes a Hawk, I'll root for him. If we give up too much for him, I'll be honest about it.  If we give up JJ to get him, I'll be furious. 

In order to win a championship, the number one thing you need is value pieces throughout your roster to go with your high priced players.  We're a smidge iffy in this arena right now, especially if we give up 2 or 3 developing bench guys in order to get him.

[thecampster]

Just now, thecampster said:

I'm not a fan of trading away assets for overpriced vets (see James Harden drama).

 

Siakam is a very good player.  If he becomes a Hawk, I'll root for him. If we give up too much for him, I'll be honest about it.  If we give up JJ to get him, I'll be furious. 

In order to win a championship, the number one thing you need is value pieces throughout your roster to go with your high priced players.  We're a smidge iffy in this arena right now, especially if we give up 2 or 3 developing bench guys in order to get him.

What we currently have is a lot of guys worth somewhere close to their current salary. Our best values are in our rookie contracts. Giving those up is a very big gamble.

 

 

[theheroatl]

12 minutes ago, thecampster said:

I'm not a fan of trading away assets for overpriced vets (see James Harden drama).

 

Siakam is a very good player.  If he becomes a Hawk, I'll root for him. If we give up too much for him, I'll be honest about it.  If we give up JJ to get him, I'll be furious. 

In order to win a championship, the number one thing you need is value pieces throughout your roster to go with your high priced players.  We're a smidge iffy in this arena right now, especially if we give up 2 or 3 developing bench guys in order to get him.

I'll agree with this assessment but sub AJ for JJ. AJ will have a remarkable career. Put this post in the archives for future praise or humiliation.

The dumb can-dans are clamoring for AJ in fact, frothing at the mouth. They can take their AJ desires and I'll give them a quality Garrison Matthews.

Edited July 18, 2023 by theheroatl

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Also, there are NO generational talents within our young talent of AJ, JJ, OO, and Bufkin.  AJ, you can say has at least put up a stat line, that if developed and given lots of playing time, could prove to be All-Star level worthy.

But everyone else are just good young prospects.

Maybe that's the game we should play when evaluating our kids.  What is the best case scenario you see out of them?  I forget who said it, but someone said that Jalen Johnson could be the next Lamar Odom.  OK, that's cool.  But Lamar was given the opportunity to be a Day 1 starter, on a horrible Clippers team.

My issue is that people are acting like our kids are untouchable.  Like they can't be replaced.  Really?

 

( talking in my Cam'Ron - "Paid in Full" voice )

"Players get replaced everyday .. B"

 

Also, the collection of AJ, JJ, OO, and Bufkin . . is NOT a better prospective group than Josh Smith, Al Horford, Marvin Williams, and Josh Childress were.  The latter group were thrown into the fire right away, and were able to be starters or contributing 6th men.  Our current group are not good enough to ALL have significant roles on our team.  Otherwise, 2 or 3 of these guys would be starting right now.

If we stand pat, there's still no guarantee that OO will beat out Capela as the starter, considering that Capela is still a capable defender and a dominant rebounder ( something that OO doesn't do at a high level yet ).  JJ could get a chance to start, but Quin could just as easy go with shooting, and insert Bey into the lineup as the 4 man.

 

For those of you who want to develop the kids, this is NOT a 2 - 3 year project.  They need to show right now that they can be significant contributors to the rotation. 

Any player that is slow to develop, you flip them for players that can contribute.  The last thing we want to be is in a situation like Toronto.  They have a ton of young talent that they were trying to develop.  But they also had high level players that were becoming impatient with their development, because it wasn't contributing to winning.

Hawks can't concentrate on trying to develop everybody.  Focus on the 2 that has shown you the most, and don't waste time on the others ( if you can flip them for a player that is ready to play NOW ).

[TheNorthCydeRises]

12 minutes ago, thecampster said:

 

 

You think Jalen will be able to do this at any point in his career?

If so, that's great.

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

People talk like this guy isn't a top 20 talent.  I mean, what are we doing?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

And while some will disagree, we MUST produce some sort of high level team here, before Trae gets a chance to terminate his contract in 2026 and get a bigger deal.  It may mean the difference between keeping him here, or seeing him go to another team.

If we're a failing team, the Hawks may let him go anyway.  But if we are failing, that also means that our young prospects didn't develop as planned.

If we're a high level team, he's more likely to stick around and sign the next big contract.

So I guess for you non-Trae Young fans, hope that we suck these next 2 years, so that Trae will want out.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

And one more thing about Toronto. They should've flipped some of their kids to get Siakam legit help.  Even if you keep OG, you have other guys on that roster that could've been traded for a decent starting piece, or a 6th man type that could pace the bench.

Now they're at a crossroads because they chose to stand pat.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Adding this level of a player with Trae and DJ could be a complete game changer for us.  That's why Landry hasn't given up on a deal.  Landry may have to come to the realization that he may have to give up one of the kids, to get a guy like this.

For those of you who believe in the "eye test", are your eyes lying to you?

 

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by TheNorthCydeRises

[macdaddy]

If AJ, OO, or JJ were in the Hawks offer this would be done already.  We're trying to send out Hunter and Capela for Siakam and another player is my guess in a 3 team deal.  

[macdaddy]

and here's how i know the Hawks aren't trading any of those guys

[AtLaS]

36 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

You think Jalen will be able to do this at any point in his career?

If so, that's great.

 

 

 

I'm totally fine trading Bufkin if they want to.  But AJ/JJ is tough.

I was the one who compared JJ's potential to Lamar Odom.  But of course there is no guarantee.  Quin really likes him, immediately began using him and he began to contribute almost immediately after he arrived.  Quin gave him confidence and the dude looks ready to breakout this year IMO.  Sure, he doesn't have a great jumper yet but he is a freak.

We are fortunate to be in a great spot with many young guys who were drafted late and have good trade value.  We nailed the JJ/AJ picks.  OO has developed well and I think is ready to be a starter.  OO was pretty high but JJ/AJ were not, we NAILED those.

Now it's the risk factor of giving up a young guy with potential for a finished product making huge money.  There is a very good chance that none of our young guys become as good as Siakam, but of course there also is a chance they will.  There is also the risk that we give them up too early before another star becomes available for trade that may be a better fit.

I love Siakam as a player, I'm just concerned about our shooting with him logging 35 minutes with this roster.  

If you look at Toronto's championship team, they had Lowry, Green, Kawhi, Gasol starting with Siakam and Vanvleet who was unconscious that year off the bench.  They had great shooters at every position around him.  We don't.  

Your post does make sense and makes me feel better about the trade, but I'd still rather go for KAT.  I'll be happy if we got Siakam though.  There is always risk, you have to give up something with potential to get something.

I thought Collins would continue to get better as well and he didn't.  A few years from now if the young guys don't get any better we will have regretted not making a trade.  The question is THIS the trade we should make.

[kg01]

59 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

People talk like this guy isn't a top 20 talent.  I mean, what are we doing?

I'd say the hesitation is more about the cost/situation than the player.

As I've been saying, TOR is in a bind.  Why should we bail them out (by offering them a plus package)? 

[thecampster]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

You think Jalen will be able to do this at any point in his career?

If so, that's great.

 

 

Jalen is currently 21 years old.  Below are Siakam's career stats.  Years 1 and 2 he was 22/23.

His first 2 years in the league, Siakam was 4.2/7.3 ppg and shot 14/22% from 3.

Year	Team	GP	Min	Pts	FG%	3pt%	Reb	Ast	Stl
2022-23	Raptors	71	37.4	24.2	48.0	32.4	7.8	5.8	0.9
2021-22	Raptors	68	37.9	22.8	49.4	34.4	8.5	5.3	1.2
2020-21	Raptors	56	35.8	21.4	45.5	29.7	7.2	4.5	1.1
2019-20	Raptors	60	35.2	22.9	45.3	35.9	7.3	3.5	1.0
2018-19	Raptors	80	31.9	16.9	54.9	36.9	6.9	3.1	0.9
2017-18	Raptors	81	20.7	7.3	50.8	22.0	4.5	2.0	0.8
2016-17	Raptors	55	15.6	4.2	50.2	14.3	3.4	0.3	0.5
Career		471	30.6	17.0	48.7	32.7	6.5	3.5	0.9

 

Jalen's first 2 years, He averaged similar ppm, FG% while shooting 28.2% from 3

 

[thecampster]

I think you really have to pull it out, look at it. Jalen is a similar type player, started his career 2 years earlier and looked very solid the 2nd half last season.  

[Peoriabird]

20 hours ago, thecampster said:

I think you really have to pull it out, look at it. Jalen is a similar type player, started his career 2 years earlier and looked very solid the 2nd half last season.  

There is no patience here.  Some think that somehow Siakam makes this team a contender which is totally laughable.  Some of these guy really need to root for the Knicks at this point because this is exactly the moves they have made year after year with the Mello's and Randles of the NBA to remain a treadmill team.

[kg01]

1 minute ago, Peoriabird said:

There is no patients here.  Some think that somehow Siakam makes this team a contender which is totally laughable.  Some of these guy really need to root for the Knicks at this point because is exactly the moves they have made year after year with the Mello's and Randles of the NBA to remain a treadmill team.

Dammit, peo.  I agree with all this.

Except the 'patients' part.  There's plenty of patients here ... mental patients. 

[theheroatl]

8 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

There is no patients here.  Some think that somehow Siakam makes this team a contender which is totally laughable.  Some of these guy really need to root for the Knicks at this point because is exactly the moves they have made year after year with the Mello's and Randles of the NBA to remain a treadmill team.

Ok, let's hear it... how do you construct a championship roster?

We don't want rebuilds or treadmills... Tell me, how do we do it, what moves should the FO make? 

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by theheroatl