Hawks looking to trade

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Can we fire Landry and hire Brad Holmes ? I mean I realize he’s a football guy but he has passion while Landry might not have a heartbeat.  

 

Hawks organization screwed up twice big time. 
 

1. Lloyd 

2. Landry

 

The lazy killer L’s. 
 

 

Completely off topic, but sorry about your Lions, @Spud2nique.   That kind of loss is painful to absorb.  My late grandfather-in-law was a very kind man and huge Lions fan so I was hoping they could get over the hump for you guys.

[LucastheThird]

6 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Can we fire Landry and hire Brad Holmes ? I mean I realize he’s a football guy but he has passion while Landry might not have a heartbeat.  

 

Hawks organization screwed up twice big time. 
 

1. Lloyd 

2. Landry

 

The lazy killer L’s. 
 

 

I wouldn't call Landry a screw-up. He hasn't really made any bad moves that I can remember. We're all losing our minds over rumored trades that are coming from the media, Klutch, and opposing teams. 

[JeffS17]

33 minutes ago, LucastheThird said:

I wouldn't call Landry a screw-up. He hasn't really made any bad moves that I can remember. We're all losing our minds over rumored trades that are coming from the media, Klutch, and opposing teams. 

Agree -- here's what I posted earlier on Landry.  Would be curious where people disagree:

 

On 1/22/2024 at 2:40 PM, JeffS17 said:

This front office hasn't really done much yet.  I'm not going to have low confidence based on rumors.  My feeling is we're in a bad situation, but it's not because of this front office group.  It's a situation that has been brewing.  Let's look at what Landry (or this new collective) has actually done since "taking over" if we can call it that.  My grades below:

• Bey for a bunch of seconds: felt like a great move last year, feels bad right now, but overall B+ from me
• Brought in Garrison Matthews and Bruno for Kaminsky and Holiday, B-
• Nate gone, Snyder hired, A from me
• Extended Bogi on $17M/year, B-
• Drafted Bufkin, Lundy, and got Mo/Miles, jury still out here
• Offloaded Collins, B-, this was cleanup of Schlenks mistakes
• Brought in Wes Matthews on a 1 year, C+
• Extended OO on ~$16M/year, B

None of these moves are really needle movers or worthy of much judgement.  People are free to judge him for moves he didn't make, but I hesitate to do that myself -- at least not until he has a body of work to draw from.  I have no idea what player availability looks, what guys want to come play in ATL, etc.  Moving DJ will be the first major move made by this new regime and that's when I'll start to form an opinion on them.  Trading for DJ in the first place was on Schlenk's watch.  I'm not going to try to untangle the politics of the '22 summer and pass judgement one way or the other.

 

[AHF]

One significant and positive move you left off your list was resigning Denjounte on a great contract this summer. 

I would rate some of these things a little differently or you could say I might frame some of this differently.  For example, when I think about Wesley Matthews in my view I am really rating Fields on use of our available dollars this summer in which case C+ is way too generous.  We didn't add any useful free agents and ended the summer $10M under the line, with an unused TPE, and an unused MLE.  Working off the assumption that we were trying to compete in the playoffs coming into the season and had multiple known injury risks (Bogi, Hunter, AJ, and JJ among them) and that we were dumping JC to reduce our forward depth that is a pretty big miss to end up with basically nothing more than Wesley Matthews.  

I am also assuming grades are something like: 

A: You knocked this out of the park, and this was hard to get done. 

B:  This was a really good move that wasn't low hanging fruit. 

C.:  You did fine.  Average result.  Nothing great or terrible about this.

D.:  You did a poor job here - either missed the mark or left a lot on the table but there is at least some merit to what you did. 

F:  You completely dropped the ball here and actively hurt the team with this move.

[JeffS17]

Just now, AHF said:

One significant and positive move you left off your list was resigning Denjounte on a great contract this summer. 

Oh wow, how did I miss that one lol... probably the most impactful move.

[JeffS17]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

For example, when I think about Wesley Matthews in my view I am really rating Fields on use of our available dollars this summer in which case C+ is way too generous.  We didn't add any useful free agents and ended the summer $10M under the line, with an unused TPE, and an unused MLE.  Working off the assumption that we were trying to compete in the playoffs coming into the season and had multiple known injury risks (Bogi, Hunter, AJ, and JJ among them) and that we were dumping JC to reduce our forward depth that is a pretty big miss to end up with basically nothing more than Wesley Matthews.  

We didn't actually have cap space for free agents though?  What were you expecting that we missed out on?  Getting vet minimums and MLEs is basically a matter of "who wants to come play for ATL on a vet min".  I don't think that's reflective of the GM.  LA could have me as a GM and guys will still want to come play there.  Best GM in the world can go to the Pistons and they aren't going to sign any good FA minimums.

[Final_quest]

2 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Oh wow, how did I miss that one lol... probably the most impactful move.

You also missed the Rudy Gay for Patty Mills deal.  Low impact move swapping deck chairs.  But I’m guessing it triggers a few people.  What can you do with Rudy Gay?

[Wretch]

28 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Agree -- here's what I posted earlier on Landry.  Would be curious where people disagree:

 

 

And this is why I maintain that I'm not going to put this all on Landry, Kyle, and Co.  There's a lot of mess that has spilled over from a previous direction we were going in and decisions made before they came in.

The unknown is what's troubling me.  I understand quite well the strategic clickbait articles and wild rumormongering.  I honestly just don't know how to gauge the influence that these agents/agencies have.

[JeffS17]

Just now, Wretch said:

And this is why I maintain that I'm not going to put this all on Landry, Kyle, and Co.  There's a lot of mess that has spilled over from a previous direction we were going in and decisions made before they came in.

The unknown is what's troubling me.  I understand quite well the strategic clickbait articles and wild rumormongering.  I honestly just don't know how to gauge the influence that these agents/agencies have.

Right, which is why we can only wait and see what happens.  My hope is that Mikeys source that mentioned a third unknown team has a trade deal in place is correct.  That would be best case scenario because it means all the public trade rumors have been used to leverage a better package from a team that has actual assets.  I hope that is the case.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

A little of column A, a little of column B?

[AHF]

12 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

We didn't actually have cap space for free agents though?  What were you expecting that we missed out on?  Getting vet minimums and MLEs is basically a matter of "who wants to come play for ATL on a vet min".  I don't think that's reflective of the GM.  LA could have me as a GM and guys will still want to come play there.  Best GM in the world can go to the Pistons and they aren't going to sign any good FA minimums.

We had roughly $12M to spend and still be under the line.  We spent $2M on a minimum deal for Wesley Matthews.  The MLE lines up almost perfectly with the space we have under the tax line so the failure to use that to get anyone worthwhile when plenty of more useful players signed for less than that is a miss is my book.

[theheroatl]

Once again, nothing has happened except twitter trades and message board rumors.. and ya'll still are on the edge

 

For entertainment purposes only right

Edited January 29 by theheroatl

[kg01]

Just now, theheroatl said:

Once again, nothing has happened except twitter trades and message board rumors.. and ya'll still are on the edge

 

For entertainment purposes only right

You're enjoying this aren't you, Nicky? 

[Final_quest]

10 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

We didn't actually have cap space for free agents though?  What were you expecting that we missed out on?  Getting vet minimums and MLEs is basically a matter of "who wants to come play for ATL on a vet min".  I don't think that's reflective of the GM.  LA could have me as a GM and guys will still want to come play there.  Best GM in the world can go to the Pistons and they aren't going to sign any good FA minimums.

Last offseason we basically made a push for Siakam/Towns or bust.  Any move made AFTER that went bust would have cost us future draft capital we couldn’t afford.  
Using the TPE without adding a draft pick would net us a bad unwanted contract.

The Thybulle suggestion has multiple problems including the fact Portland would have matched.  Also, we’re trying to control salary bloat mistakes and it would have added to that problem.  Additionally, you can’t add that type of salary while pursuing guys due big raises like KAT and Siakam.  

Wes Mathews has sucked.  Probably could have a better vet min.  But not sure if it would be someone who saves the season.  

[JeffS17]

 

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

We had roughly $12M to spend and still be under the line.  We spent $2M on a minimum deal for Wesley Matthews.  The MLE lines up almost perfectly with the space we have under the tax line so the failure to use that to get anyone worthwhile when plenty of more useful players signed for less than that is a miss is my book.

Let's look at the actual MLE signings instead of just reductively saying we should have used the $12M.  What from below actually makes sense for the Hawks?  I bolded the only realistic targets.

• Jevon Carter: 3 years $6M a year guaranteed.  Maybe we could have offered him more to come to ATL(?).  Worth it?  I don't know because we just drafted Kobe and it's a three year deal.  Probably not.
• Georges Niang: 3 years at $8M a year.  Probably would have been worth pursuing -- maybe we did?
• Reggie Jackson: 2 years $5M a year, signed with Nuggets.  Doubt we had a shot at him.
• Gabe Vincent: 3 years $11M/year with Lakers.  Doubt we had a shot.
• Bismack Biyombo: 1 year $5M.  We don't need another backup center.
• Shake Milton: 1 year $5M (second year non-guaranteed).  Should have targeted him if we didn't, although we don't have much room in the rotation for another SG.
• Done DiVincenzo: no chance at him, 4 years $11-12M per, signed with Knicks
• Dennis Schröder: Already have a squeeze at PG for minutes, which is causing the DJ issues -- would not make sense to lock him in for 2 years at $13M per.

It's very easy to be dismissive of the FO and Landry for not using the MLE, but what were the actual options?  There they are.  We could have outbid teams for those players, assuming they'd even be open to coming to Atlanta which is highly questionable.  And for veteran minimum players, being upset we didn't sign better vet min guys is just accusing Landry of GM malpractice.  Do you think there were high value vet mins that wanted to come to Atlanta and we just rejected them?  That take doesn't even pass the sniff test.

There's a reason there are so few MLE targets available, and that's because really useful wing archetypes and backup PFs (what we really need) are locked into decent deals.  They aren't lingering around waiting for MLE bids.  There's nothing above that actually makes a difference in our rotations, with the exception of maybe Niang.

[JeffS17]

1 minute ago, Final_quest said:

Last offseason we basically made a push for Siakam/Towns or bust.  Any move made AFTER that went bust would have cost us future draft capital we couldn’t afford.  
Using the TPE without adding a draft pick would net us a bad unwanted contract.

The Thybulle suggestion has multiple problems including the fact Portland would have matched.  Also, we’re trying to control salary bloat mistakes and it would have added to that problem.  Additionally, you can’t add that type of salary while pursuing guys due big raises like KAT and Siakam.  

Wes Mathews has sucked.  Probably could have a better vet min.  But not sure if it would be someone who saves the season.  

Yes, exactly.  This isn't 2K.  You don't get to just offer 1 year deals to guys that are playing for total $ contracts.  And you're bidding against other teams, and a lot of these other teams are just more appealing to guys from a city/market perspective.  It's why 20 teams did not use the MLE this season -- we're not some outlier here, it's just a hyper competitive market for those guys.

[Final_quest]

7 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

 

Let's look at the actual MLE signings instead of just reductively saying we should have used the $12M.  What from below actually makes sense for the Hawks?  I bolded the only realistic targets.

• Jevon Carter: 3 years $6M a year guaranteed.  Maybe we could have offered him more to come to ATL(?).  Worth it?  I don't know because we just drafted Kobe and it's a three year deal.  Probably not.
• Georges Niang: 3 years at $8M a year.  Probably would have been worth pursuing -- maybe we did?
• Reggie Jackson: 2 years $5M a year, signed with Nuggets.  Doubt we had a shot at him.
• Gabe Vincent: 3 years $11M/year with Lakers.  Doubt we had a shot.
• Bismack Biyombo: 1 year $5M.  We don't need another backup center.
• Shake Milton: 1 year $5M (second year non-guaranteed).  Should have targeted him if we didn't, although we don't have much room in the rotation for another SG.
• Done DiVincenzo: no chance at him, 4 years $11-12M per, signed with Knicks
• Dennis Schröder: Already have a squeeze at PG for minutes, which is causing the DJ issues -- would not make sense to lock him in for 2 years at $13M per.

It's very easy to be dismissive of the FO and Landry for not using the MLE, but what were the actual options?  There they are.  We could have outbid teams for those players, assuming they'd even be open to coming to Atlanta which is highly questionable.  And for veteran minimum players, being upset we didn't sign better vet min guys is just accusing Landry of GM malpractice.  Do you think there were high value vet mins that wanted to come to Atlanta and we just rejected them?  That take doesn't even pass the sniff test.

There's a reason there are so few MLE targets available, and that's because really useful wing archetypes and backup PFs (what we really need) are locked into decent deals.  They aren't lingering around waiting for MLE bids.  There's nothing above that actually makes a difference in our rotations, with the exception of maybe Niang.

Niang was signed June 30.  At that point it appears we were in pursuit of much bigger fish.  He was long gone by the time we would have considered a higher bid on his three year contract.    

We swung for the big boys and lost.  Very unappealing options available after we made that pursuit.  

[deester11]

18 minutes ago, theheroatl said:

Once again, nothing has happened except twitter trades and message board rumors.. and ya'll still are on the edge

 

For entertainment purposes only right

You keep saying this. We get it. But if I want to poo poo...bytch, whine and complain, I'll do so.  Thank you very much.  The Hawks have given me PTSD.  2 military services didn't . 

[Vol4ever]

13 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Niang was signed June 30.  At that point it appears we were in pursuit of much bigger fish.  He was long gone by the time we would have considered a higher bid on his three year contract.    

We swung for the big boys and lost.  Very unappealing options available after we made that pursuit.  

and the same thing will happen this offseason.   We will not get KAT Imo or any other big-time player.   Our franchise takes a knife to a gun fight.  

[deester11]

4 minutes ago, Vol4ever said:

and the same thing will happen this offseason.   We will not get KAT Imo or any other big-time player.   Our franchise takes a knife to a gun fight.  

I keep saying this. I believe it.