Tanking is the best option for the Hawks right now.

[KB21]

8 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I do not trust this FO to pull off an OKC rebuild that most franchises have completely floundered trying to do.  Presti's tank and rebuild is a huge anomaly, not the norm.  

See my signature.

[Sothron]

1 hour ago, shakes said:

turns out, that fluke playoff run was the absolute worst thing that could've happened this team.  

 

The fact that you're bringing it up as a reason to hesitate in blowing this team up shows that the damage done by that ECF run is still happening.

Did you miss the next part of my post you left out that completely counters what you just posted?

I think the general feeling among all of us here is the ECF run was the worst thing that could happen because it locked us into this core and Ressler being cheap af meant no growth beyond it.

[shakes]

19 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Did you miss the next part of my post you left out that completely counters what you just posted?

I think the general feeling among all of us here is the ECF run was the worst thing that could happen because it locked us into this core and Ressler being cheap af meant no growth beyond it.

I was only addressing the part of the post where you said this team can win with Trae.    It's that belief that has led to the disaster we now have and the continued hesitancy to blow it all up.    That is all the result of the fluke ECF run.

52 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I do not trust this FO to pull off an OKC rebuild that most franchises have completely floundered trying to do.  Presti's tank and rebuild is a huge anomaly, not the norm.  

unfortunately you hit the nail on the head.  This franchise might just be completely screwed till they get a new owner.

[AHF]

28 minutes ago, shakes said:

I was only addressing the part of the post where you said this team can win with Trae.    It's that belief that has led to the disaster we now have and the continued hesitancy to blow it all up.    That is all the result of the fluke ECF run.

Nope.  The team can win with Trae if the FO holds up their end of the deal and the owner his.  The ECF was the only season where we had a nice depth of talent and we won that season mostly without our two lottery wings.  Since then, it has been a rough go of it for the FO.  Just because Trae is still waiting to play with someone who is an All-Star in Atlanta doesn't mean the team can't win with him.  

When Steph Curry had his first winning season, he already had a teammate who had been an All-Star playing with him in Golden State.  When he started winning rings, he was playing next to multiple All-Stars / All-NBA recognized players.  It wasn't that he was a terrible player when the team wasn't having success, it was that Curry was still maturing and didn't have the kind of roster around him that truly unlocked success.

[shakes]

32 minutes ago, AHF said:

Nope.  The team can win with Trae if the FO holds up their end of the deal and the owner his.  The ECF was the only season where we had a nice depth of talent and we won that season mostly without our two lottery wings.  Since then, it has been a rough go of it for the FO.  Just because Trae is still waiting to play with someone who is an All-Star in Atlanta doesn't mean the team can't win with him.  

 

 

This is what I'm talking about.    Keep drinking the Kool-aid.

 

 

[AHF]

42 minutes ago, shakes said:

 

This is what I'm talking about.    Keep drinking the Kool-aid.

 

 

Please elaborate.  I'm saying Curry, a player who has a much better career than Trae (career to date), didn't win for years in Golden State until he had All-Star level teammates and a stronger roster around him.  I'm not predicting that Trae wins a bunch of rings like the Warriors but the idea that with better teammates Trae can't be on a team that is a winner (which does not mean champion) is ridiculous to me.

Jordan is the greatest player in the history of the NBA and he didn't win an NBA playoff series until he had Scottie Pippen, Charles Oakley, and Horace Grant on the roster.  Do we have anyone with All-Star / All-NBA talent like that on the current roster?  You tell me.  

Nobody does it alone in the NBA.  But I'm not making the argument that Trae will win a million titles like these guys or that he is at their level.  Instead, you are saying he will never win.  I'm saying that even the greatest players didn't win until they had better teammates.

[shakes]

26 minutes ago, AHF said:

Please elaborate.  I'm saying Curry, a player who has a much better career than Trae (career to date), didn't win for years in Golden State until he had All-Star level teammates and a stronger roster around him.  I'm not predicting that Trae wins a bunch of rings like the Warriors but the idea that with better teammates Trae can't be on a team that is a winner (which does not mean champion) is ridiculous to me.

Jordan is the greatest player in the history of the NBA and he didn't win an NBA playoff series until he had Scottie Pippen, Charles Oakley, and Horace Grant on the roster.  Do we have anyone with All-Star / All-NBA talent like that on the current roster?  You tell me.  

Nobody does it alone in the NBA.  But I'm not making the argument that Trae will win a million titles like these guys or that he is at their level.  Instead, you are saying he will never win.  I'm saying that even the greatest players didn't win until they had better teammates.

elaboration:

 

- Trae is extremely difficult to build around, probably the hardest franchise player to build around in the entire league

- ATL has arguably the worst ownership and FO in the NBA

-the ECF gave people the false belief that the combo above can build a contender

-people keep referring back to that ECF run as evidence that it can work with this group rather than focus on everything that has happened since

-people don't want to rebuild because they point to the ECF as "proof" that it can work and we just need a few other pieces, completely ignoring the more recent evidence.

 

Conclusion:  The ECF was the worst thing that ever happened to this team and has quite possibly set the franchise back a decade.

 

question: without that ECF run do we have DJM on the roster?  No.  We still have all our draft picks.  Yes.  Are we in a much better position to make moves around Trae if we don't make that ECF run?  Yes

[AHF]

I’m seeing a solid argument from you that the FO failed the team and fans but nothing that makes me think a team can’t win with Trae.  He has been in the playoffs for 3 consecutive years with those screw ups so where would the team be if the FO made the right moves?  
 

If you are arguing the FO can’t get it right that isn’t an argument that team can’t be a winner with Trae and certainly gives me no confidence that they could manage through a rebuild without Pistoning the team.

[JayBirdHawk]

10 hours ago, shakes said:

If Hawks were smart (whcih they aren't) and had long term vision (which they don't) they would pounce on this trade to SAS and unload Trae to them, get back all their picks + 1-2 more FRPs or assets.   Then unload DJM for 1-2 FRP.  Then unload Hunter, OO, Bogi and anyone else who can net a draft pick.  Hang onto JJ nad no one else.

.

That's unrealistic. JJ is already extension eligible this offseason, so all we're doing is starting the same cycle over again. Pass.

[NBASupes]

4 hours ago, shakes said:

elaboration:

 

- Trae is extremely difficult to build around, probably the hardest franchise player to build around in the entire league

- ATL has arguably the worst ownership and FO in the NBA

-the ECF gave people the false belief that the combo above can build a contender

-people keep referring back to that ECF run as evidence that it can work with this group rather than focus on everything that has happened since

-people don't want to rebuild because they point to the ECF as "proof" that it can work and we just need a few other pieces, completely ignoring the more recent evidence.

 

Conclusion:  The ECF was the worst thing that ever happened to this team and has quite possibly set the franchise back a decade.

 

question: without that ECF run do we have DJM on the roster?  No.  We still have all our draft picks.  Yes.  Are we in a much better position to make moves around Trae if we don't make that ECF run?  Yes

This is where being a lifetime Hawk fan comes into place. We aren't any good at rebuilding. We need to stick with Trae. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

6 hours ago, shakes said:

elaboration:

 

- Trae is extremely difficult to build around, probably the hardest franchise player to build around in the entire league

- ATL has arguably the worst ownership and FO in the NBA

-the ECF gave people the false belief that the combo above can build a contender

-people keep referring back to that ECF run as evidence that it can work with this group rather than focus on everything that has happened since

-people don't want to rebuild because they point to the ECF as "proof" that it can work and we just need a few other pieces, completely ignoring the more recent evidence.

 

Conclusion:  The ECF was the worst thing that ever happened to this team and has quite possibly set the franchise back a decade.

 

question: without that ECF run do we have DJM on the roster?  No.  We still have all our draft picks.  Yes.  Are we in a much better position to make moves around Trae if we don't make that ECF run?  Yes

Why do people keep saying that Trae is hard to build around.  We havent tried.  Siakam was the one to go get, but they coveted their young guys over adding an all-nba player on the frontline.  And some of those guys the coach doesn't even play.

A competent owner and front office doesn't let starter level players go, without replacing them with comparable talent.

Ressler is running the franchise on the cheap. That is the real issue.

Edited March 5 by TheNorthCydeRises

[givemesome1ce1]

People haven’t really admitted this surprisingly but…the team has drafted pretty darn well post 2019 draft. Onyeka is a good center and could start next year. Jalen is great and is continuing to grow as the starting four. AJ had an incredible bumpy second year but is waking up in College Park thankfully. Kobe Bufkin has shown he’s already the best guard defender on this team and has huge potential. The team took 2nd round draft picks seriously and Seth Lundy and Mo Gueye have huge potential. With the exception of Lundy, all of the players I mentioned are under the age of 22. Their youth and the ability to draft well is basically the saving grace of this team right now. 
 

The main issue is : 1. Can this be able to trade for someone that isn’t at best a net neutral for this team?  And 2. Will that guy be available this offseason? 
 

Because clearly they’ve shown the ability to draft talent. 

[shakes]

9 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Why do people keep saying that Trae is hard to build around. 

because he's a tiny guard who dominates the ball, struggles to defend and refuses to move without the ball.

You think that's easy to build around????

[KB21]

7 hours ago, givemesome1ce1 said:

People haven’t really admitted this surprisingly but…the team has drafted pretty darn well post 2019 draft. Onyeka is a good center and could start next year. Jalen is great and is continuing to grow as the starting four. AJ had an incredible bumpy second year but is waking up in College Park thankfully. Kobe Bufkin has shown he’s already the best guard defender on this team and has huge potential. The team took 2nd round draft picks seriously and Seth Lundy and Mo Gueye have huge potential. With the exception of Lundy, all of the players I mentioned are under the age of 22. Their youth and the ability to draft well is basically the saving grace of this team right now. 
 

The main issue is : 1. Can this be able to trade for someone that isn’t at best a net neutral for this team?  And 2. Will that guy be available this offseason? 
 

Because clearly they’ve shown the ability to draft talent. 

This.  At some point, you have to be willing to give up youth for experience when you are trying to win.  The only reason to not move some of these young guys for an established veteran, such as Siakam, is to maintain their cost control over a few more years. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

7 hours ago, givemesome1ce1 said:

People haven’t really admitted this surprisingly but…the team has drafted pretty darn well post 2019 draft. Onyeka is a good center and could start next year. Jalen is great and is continuing to grow as the starting four. AJ had an incredible bumpy second year but is waking up in College Park thankfully. Kobe Bufkin has shown he’s already the best guard defender on this team and has huge potential. The team took 2nd round draft picks seriously and Seth Lundy and Mo Gueye have huge potential. With the exception of Lundy, all of the players I mentioned are under the age of 22. Their youth and the ability to draft well is basically the saving grace of this team right now. 
 

The main issue is : 1. Can this be able to trade for someone that isn’t at best a net neutral for this team?  And 2. Will that guy be available this offseason? 
 

Because clearly they’ve shown the ability to draft talent. 

2019

• Hunter ( trade ) - solid starter/6th man . . not producing at top 4 lottery pick level
• Reddish - bust
• Bruno ( trade ) - 3rd team center with 2nd team backup center potential

2020

• Okongwu - solid role player . . . not producing at top 10 lottery level and unable to remove Clint from starting lineup
• Mays - G-league level guard

2021

• J. Johnson - solid young prospect with high potential, starter level combo forward
• Cooper - G-league level guard

2022

• Griffin - showed early promise as a prospect, in complete limbo now
• Rollins - traded for Tyrese Martin . . G-league level player

2023

• Bufkin - G-league level guard with good potential to be a solid starter
• Lundy - G-league level guard

 

 

We have 3 rotation players that we've drafted since 2019, with none of them turning into breakout type stars yet.  JJ is the closest we have to that.  All of our 2nd round picks have failed to become rotation players, and are struggling to even stay in the league.  Even Bruno can't crack the lineup when everyone is healthy.

Our drafting has been so bad, that we're hoping that an UNDRAFTED kid turns into a nice player ( Mo G ).

[AHF]

9 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Our drafting has been so bad, that we're hoping that an UNDRAFTED kid turns into a nice player ( Mo G ).

Mo was drafted #39 which was 7 picks before Lundry.

[Mikey]

On 3/4/2024 at 8:58 AM, shakes said:

If Hawks were smart (whcih they aren't) and had long term vision (which they don't) they would pounce on this trade to SAS and unload Trae to them, get back all their picks + 1-2 more FRPs or assets.   Then unload DJM for 1-2 FRP.  Then unload Hunter, OO, Bogi and anyone else who can net a draft pick.  Hang onto JJ nad no one else.

Put together the worst team in the league next year and go full in the bag for Flagg.

 

As great as Trae is he's too hard to build around for the Hawks owners and FO.  Way above their skill level and means.  Only a great franchise and FO could make it work arond Trae and this team has neither.

 

Time to accept that and move on to the next rendition.  Best way to do that is total tank.  Not some half ass tank.

 

Face it, THIS TEAM WILL NEVER WIN WITH TRAE.  The sooner the team accepts that (as in must be accepted this off season) the greater chance they have of finally turning this mediocrity standard bearer around.

If they were smart they would keep Kobe jalen and O and tank for 2025 and 2026. The pieces are there if they just land that high level guy they could be legit. Sadly Quin doesn’t want anything to do with a rebuild so I doubt this happens unless Trae asks out 

[JeffS17]

30 minutes ago, Mikey said:

If they were smart they would keep Kobe jalen and O and tank for 2025 and 2026. The pieces are there if they just land that high level guy they could be legit. Sadly Quin doesn’t want anything to do with a rebuild so I doubt this happens unless Trae asks out 

Yeah, let's definitely tank for high picks in years we don't own our picks.  Mikey, you're making me feel like I'm on Twitter right now.

And miss me with "trade Trae for our picks back" because there's no way in hell San Antonio does that.  They can patiently wait, tank another year, and as time passes, leverage in that trade goes up and up.  And eventually we'll be forced to SnT Trae if that's the route he wants to go.  San Antonio is a very competent front office with a once in a lifetime player.  They have all leverage in any trade scenario -- so we're never getting those picks back, we can stop fantasizing about that.

[JeffS17]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

2019

• Hunter ( trade ) - solid starter/6th man . . not producing at top 4 lottery pick level
• Reddish - bust
• Bruno ( trade ) - 3rd team center with 2nd team backup center potential

2020

• Okongwu - solid role player . . . not producing at top 10 lottery level and unable to remove Clint from starting lineup
• Mays - G-league level guard

2021

• J. Johnson - solid young prospect with high potential, starter level combo forward
• Cooper - G-league level guard

2022

• Griffin - showed early promise as a prospect, in complete limbo now
• Rollins - traded for Tyrese Martin . . G-league level player

2023

• Bufkin - G-league level guard with good potential to be a solid starter
• Lundy - G-league level guard

 

 

We have 3 rotation players that we've drafted since 2019, with none of them turning into breakout type stars yet.  JJ is the closest we have to that.  All of our 2nd round picks have failed to become rotation players, and are struggling to even stay in the league.  Even Bruno can't crack the lineup when everyone is healthy.

Our drafting has been so bad, that we're hoping that an UNDRAFTED kid turns into a nice player ( Mo G ).

Our results have been slightly above average in my opinion.  Unfortunately, you need well above average results in the draft if you want to contend. 

• Hunter was the right pick, even  in a re-draft, so calling him "not top 4 lottery level" is unfair.  It was a very weak draft.
• Cam was a bust but I liked that pick, considering the other options on the board at the time.  It was an unfortunate draft to have two lotto picks.
• Heurter was a nice pick and we got an equal pick back for him so that's just a wash
• JC was a very solid pick but we fumbled his contract extension
• Okongwu is absolutely producing at a top 10 pick level -- no idea what kind of expectations you have for 6-10
• Jalen was a very nice pick
• Griffin is still TBD, shouldn't expect a ton for a 16th pick yet anyways, but his personal issues are certainly concerning
• Bufkin is still TBD, but early signs are relatively promising.

The entire premise of "turning into breakout stars" for the positions were picking is pretty wild.  A healthier opinion is that we're very lucky to have JJ on the roster with potential to be just that, given where we've been picking in these drafts.  

[Mikey]

9 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Yeah, let's definitely tank for high picks in years we don't own our picks.  Mikey, you're making me feel like I'm on Twitter right now.

And miss me with "trade Trae for our picks back" because there's no way in hell San Antonio does that.  They can patiently wait, tank another year, and as time passes, leverage in that trade goes up and up.  And eventually we'll be forced to SnT Trae if that's the route he wants to go.  San Antonio is a very competent front office with a once in a lifetime player.  They have all leverage in any trade scenario -- so we're never getting those picks back, we can stop fantasizing about that.

Just because you say they won’t do that doesn’t eliminate that as a potential outcome lol. 

Victor wants to win and he will be too good next year for them to land a good pick. Not to mention Trae wants to play with wemby. It’s there if they want it. They just don’t want it