sad but true...

[Weez]

from ESPN Power Rankings:

Losing Salim Stoudamire for the rest of the season (elbow) leads to (one more) painful admission: Hawks just lost their most productive rookie.

ouch.

[Packfill]

Truth hurts.

[Johnnybravo4]

But we have the mighty Royal Ivey!

[AHF]

That isn't true according to NBA.com's rookie rankings in which Marvin is a top 10 guy and Salim is listed as an honorable mention.

[KB21]

.....people continuously taking shots at Marvin Williams because he hasn't come right into the league and averaged 20 PPG.

I wonder what many of you would have said if we had Chris Bosh during his rookie season:

Chris Bosh as a rookie: 13.7 P/40, 8.9 R/40, 51.3 TS%, 15.8 USG, 12.8 REB

Marvin Williams at this point: 13.1 P/40, 8.0 R/40, 51.7 TS%, 14.8 USG, 12.2 REB

Basically, there is very little that separates their performances as rookies. The fact is, both players at the same stage of development were young players that represented potential. They were drafted based on the projections of what they will be in 3-4 years time, not what they will be as a rookie. However, it's obvious that some of you would have given up on Chris Bosh during his rookie season because he didn't make the immediate impact to satisfy those cravings for instant gratification. Kirk Hinrich made more of an immediate impact than Chris Bosh did, but you don't hear Toronto fans bitching about it now.

[Nicholasp27]

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But we have the mighty Royal Ivey!

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Ivey isn't a rookie, so doesn't apply

you've been drinking Diesel's haterade, huh?

[SmooveTheFuture]

Quote:

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.....people continuously taking shots at Marvin Williams because he hasn't come right into the league and averaged 20 PPG.

I wonder what many of you would have said if we had Chris Bosh during his rookie season:

Chris Bosh as a rookie:

13.7 P/40, 8.9 R/40, 51.3 TS%, 15.8 USG, 12.8 REB

Marvin Williams at this point:

13.1 P/40, 8.0 R/40, 51.7 TS%, 14.8 USG, 12.2 REB

Basically, there is very little that separates their performances as rookies. The fact is, both players at the same stage of development were young players that represented potential. They were drafted based on the projections of what they will be in 3-4 years time, not what they will be as a rookie. However, it's obvious that some of you would have given up on Chris Bosh during his rookie season because he didn't make the immediate impact to satisfy those cravings for instant gratification. Kirk Hinrich made more of an immediate impact than Chris Bosh did, but you don't hear Toronto fans bitching about it now.

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Please dont ever compare Bosh and Marvin Williams thats the biggest Joke I ever seen. Bosh is 10x the player Williams is right now

[AHF]

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Bosh is 10x the player Williams is right now

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It is a little unfair to compare someone who is several years out of college with someone who is immediately out of college. KB's comparison was fair, IMO. If you want to argue they shouldn't be comparable you should argue why they have different expected growth curves despite similar first-year per-minute statistics.

[thesheedera]

SmooveTheFuture, good job of proving his point. Either you didn't read the post, or you're incapable of reading comprehension.

I could understand someone countering by saying that they don't like using per 40 averages as comparisons, but your response makes no sense.

He's comparing Bosh's rookie season to Marvin's, which by his evaluation are almost identical.

Similarly they were both high prospects out of high school who played a year in the ACC and went high in the draft to bad teams. Both of them are/were considered versatile (or tweeners, depending on your level of hateitude) players who needed to add strength and polish to raw high potential games.

Its a valid comparison. We'll see how far along Marvin is at the same point in his career, I expect it to be pretty close.

They play different positions but have similar skills and both are class A character guys. Hard to root against either of them unless you have a vendetta against them for some reason.

[Traceman]

[Gray Mule]

Yes! YES!!!

Some people can't see the forest because the trees keep

getting in the way!!

Marvin is still a 19 year old. Just now BEGINNING to

understand the NBA game and the NBA life.

Everyone doesn't expect him to be the second coming

of L. James. He's one of a kind.

Sure, you can't compare the two. But, you can compare

their rookie years. Looks mighty close to me.

[thesheedera]

Bosh got drafted by a horrible team without a soul in the post.

Marvin got drafted by a slightly less horrible team that is LOADED at the forward spot.

The stats are misleading if you take them as gospel. If you look at them and put them into context with all the other stuff, they have some meaning. Its just one way to compare them.

[Packfill]

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Bosh was playing 34 minutes a game his rookie year. Marvin has been playing 24 minutes a game this year. Thats a BIG difference, one contributed greatly to the team and the other hasn't. For example, Rafael Araujo put up 10.7 P/40, 10.1 R/40, 49.2 TS%, 13.7 USG, 14.2 REB. Not terribly worse than Bosh, but yet you DO hear Toronto fans complain about him, I wonder why...

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I agree that real stats based on actual minutes played are a better gauge of a players worth then projected numbers based on minutes the player didn't play.

Bosh became a stud in year two and now is a franchise player in year three. We can only hope Marvin progresses on a similar trajectory. I think the one big disadvantage Marvin has is that in order to realize his potential he will have to separate himself from Smoove and Childress. So far it is unclear whether that will happen.

That in essence is the crux of the whole Paul vs. Marvin debate. No one except maybe Diesel is denying he has tremendous talent. Rather the arguement is whether is so much more talented then Childress or Smoove such that it warrants duplication at the forward position - as opposed to filling a clear need area at point guard with Paul. Obviously the answer to the question will take another two years, but so far Paul is trending higher.

Going forward the issue is now whether the Hawks can address their needs at center and point guard via the draft or free agency, given the power forward/shooting guard heavy nature of the draft. So if BK picked Paul a selection of a Tyrus Thomas would be a slam dunk, whereas now it does raise some of the same duplication issues.

Of course, by writing this I will be labeled a Marvin-hater, whereas I like to think of myself as a Paul-sympathizer, meaning I don't hate Marvin I just liked Paul better as a draft pick.

[SmooveTheFuture]

1st of all these guys are very different Bosh going into the NBA had more low post moves then Marvin will ever have in his life hes a shot blocker which Marvin doesnt do. If your telling me Marvin will turn out to be a similar verison of Bosh you gotta be on serious crack. Bosh is already an allstar in this 3rd year in the NBA and one of the best big men in the game at 21 years old. They dont even play the same position. You can compare Marvins numbers to alot of other rookies who never panned out as well.

[exodus]

Bosh is a shot blocker? I don't think blocking 1 shot a game makes him a shotblocker.

[Popeye]

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1st of all these guys are very different Bosh going into the NBA had more low post moves then Marvin will ever have in his life hes a shot blocker which Marvin doesnt do. If your telling me Marvin will turn out to be a similar verison of Bosh you gotta be on serious crack. Bosh is already an allstar in this 3rd year in the NBA and one of the best big men in the game at 21 years old. They dont even play the same position. You can compare Marvins numbers to alot of other rookies who never panned out as well.

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Hateeerrr!!1

[SmooveTheFuture]

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Bosh got drafted by a horrible team without a soul in the post.

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They were a bad team, but he had to share the ball with Vince, Jalen, and Donyell which took away from his scoring.

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Marvin got drafted by a slightly less horrible team that is LOADED at the forward spot.

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The Hawks right now are definitely worse than the Raps that drafted Bosh (they were 33-49).

And the whole point is that Bosh contributed and Marvin hasn't. The per 40 stats don't mean anything which is why you should look at the Araujo per 40 stats. Hell even looking at Kwame Brown's per 40 stats from his rookie season just show how pointless looking at per 40 is (12.6 P/40, 9.7 R/40, 45% TS, 17.2 Usg, 14.1 REB) they are very similar to Bosh and Marvin...

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Well said.

[Diesel]

12.1 p/40, 10.8 r/40 3.8 b/40

Hell, if we go by these numbers in his rookie year, then Darko IS better than Bosh and how dare anybody question his being picked 2nd overall!

[thesheedera]

EDS - nothing "hatin" about that. Very fair assessment.

I for one don't think last year's PG/C crop was lightyears beyond this year's. I think this year has 1 to 2 players' worth less talent at PG, and might actually have more talent at PF/C. I think the days of the "true center" are mostly past us.

[thesheedera]

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1st of all these guys are very different Bosh going into the NBA had more low post moves then Marvin will ever have in his life hes a shot blocker which Marvin doesnt do. If your telling me Marvin will turn out to be a similar verison of Bosh you gotta be on serious crack. Bosh is already an allstar in this 3rd year in the NBA and one of the best big men in the game at 21 years old. They dont even play the same position. You can compare Marvins numbers to alot of other rookies who never panned out as well.

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If you read what I posted, you would know that I recognize that they are different players with different games. They play different positions, but both possess a lot of similar skills that most players 6'9" and up don't possess. Soft touch, range, ball handling skills.

I never said they are the same player. All I said is that the stats posted above indicate some similarities, and I went on to mention some other similarities. The whole point of this is that those who still think Marvin will be a great pro understand that he doesn't have to be all world now in order to be a franchise player by year 3.