sad but true...

[Wretch]

This is exactly my opinion on the matter. For the most part, I believe that is Diesel's opinion too.

[Diesel]

Quote:

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That in essence is the crux of the whole Paul vs. Marvin debate. No one except maybe Diesel is denying he has tremendous talent. Rather the arguement is whether is so much more talented then Childress or Smoove such that it warrants duplication at the forward position - as opposed to filling a clear need area at point guard with Paul. Obviously the answer to the question will take another two years, but so far Paul is trending higher.

---

Like I have said before.. I don't doubt Marvin's talent. I just don't think he has talent worthy of the #2 pick overall with Deron and Paul still on the board and our real need being PG/C.

This is the crux of my argument with Marvin. I just don't think Marvin will ever be much more than Tim Thomas type. A guy who can score in the open court but is mainly a jump shooter otherwise. Anybody can do that.

Moreover, I don't think you can say that in two years, Marvin will be much much better and Paul will be in decline. That's homerism speaking. Right now, there are a whole lot of Hawksquawkers who are still on the Marvin Bandwagon who HOPE Against Hope that somehow Paul will start declining.. The truth is that Paul is the best rookie PG to come out since Isiah Thomas and he might be better than that. Seriously, JKidd's rookie year was about 11.7 ppg, 7.7 apg... Right now, Paul is at 16.1, 7.9... with less weapons. Paul don't have a Jim Jackson or Jamal Mashburn finishing his plays.

[thesheedera]

This:

Quote:

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I don't doubt Marvin's talent.

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And this:

Quote:

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I just don't think Marvin will ever be much more than Tim Thomas type. A guy who can score in the open court but is mainly a jump shooter otherwise. Anybody can do that.

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Do not add up. Diesel, you DO doubt Marvin's talent, and you doubt his heart as well. EDS' argument was sound, he didn't take any shots at one player in order to make another look better in an attempt to win an argument.

[exodus]

I am going to start counting your anti-Marvin posts.

Quote:

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I just don't think Marvin will ever be much more than Tim Thomas type. A guy who can score in the open court but is mainly a jump shooter otherwise. Anybody can do that.

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BTW Marvins rebounding numbers this year will be as good as TT ever had his whole career.

[KB21]

When you compare the two player's regular averages, you are making an apples to oranges comparison.

[Diesel]

Look at the per 40 numbers.

Actually. Darko was a bit better.

What you don't understand is that you can take any underachieving player, put his per 40 numbers up and match him up with just about anybody you want. It means nothing.

Per 40 minutes would mean that Ben Gordon was much better than Vince Carter. And that Dermarr Johnson was as good as Vince Carter.

You don't believe that to be true do you?

It's a coincidental relationship.

[exodus]

[AHF]

Quote:

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Look at the per 40 numbers.

Actually. Darko was a bit better.

What you don't understand is that you can take any underachieving player, put his per 40 numbers up and match him up with just about anybody you want. It means nothing.

Per 40 minutes would mean that Ben Gordon was much better than Vince Carter. And that Dermarr Johnson was as good as Vince Carter.

You don't believe that to be true do you?

It's a coincidental relationship.

---

It is really dependent on the sample size as to how meaningful per minute statistics are. As far as Marvin goes, the nice piece of the puzzle is that with more minutes he seems to give you increased production as he did while Childress was out. I think that with significiantly increased minutes we can expect significantly increased production.

Incidently, Darko is actually bearing out some of those per minute statistics now that he is getting more time in Orlando.

[Final_quest]

Do you know how many rookies would compare to per 40 stats of a KG, Tmac, Jermain Oneal, and Kobe in their rookie years?

I'm not saying Marvin will be a bust, but I question the logic of comparing per 40 stats when you are using stars who had the most modest rookie seasons. Caron Butler's rookie season compared to some really great players. He's a decent player, but will never be a Tmac or Kobe even though he had a great rookie season.

All we know for sure is that if Marvin will eventually become a star player, his stats didn't reflect that his rookie season. Because we can find a rookie season of a star who had comparable per 40 stats really means nothing, except that Marvin still has a CHANCE of becoming a star.

[AHF]

Quote:

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is an apples to apples. Marvin has regular averages based on how well he plays, what kind of minutes he deserves and things of that nature. Same for Bosh. Looking at per 40 skews it because the person that only deserves to play 12 minutes a game because they suck ass (see Rafael Araujo) actually compares favorably to players like Bosh. Per 40 is more like apples to onions, per 40 being the onions because I cry when anyone actually believes they are something you can use to compare players. Just imagine, Darko's per 40 stats his first year on the Pistons, they were better on blocks than both of the Wallaces and better on rebounds than Rasheed plus better Usg than both of them. Wow, what

were

those Pistons thinking by not starting Darko? With those per 40 stats they

must

mean he would produce at that rate no matter how many minutes he plays.

---

That is why you have to look at sample size. What someone does in 6 mpg is much less meaningful than what they do in 15 mpg. Most player who vastly increase their #s don't significantly increase their per minute numbers unless they are very young - they just increase their overall minutes.

[gsuteke]

Quote:

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Do you know how many rookies would compare to per 40 stats of a KG, Tmac, Jermain Oneal, and Kobe in their rookie years?

I'm not saying Marvin will be a bust, but I question the logic of comparing per 40 stats when you are using stars who had the most modest rookie seasons. Caron Butler's rookie season compared to some really great players. He's a decent player, but will never be a Tmac or Kobe even though he had a great rookie season.

All we know for sure is that if Marvin will eventually become a star player, his stats didn't reflect that his rookie season. Because we can find a rookie season of a star who had comparable per 40 stats really means nothing, except that Marvin still has a CHANCE of becoming a star.

---

if i'm not mistaken KG is the only one in that group that got any run his rookie year. i'm positive Oneal and Kobe didn't play.

[gsuteke]

97-98 TOR 64 17 18.4 .450 .341 .712 1.6 2.6 4.2 1.5 .77 .95 1.03 1.30 7.0

[gsuteke]

96-97 POR 45 0 10.2 .451 .000 .603 .9 1.9 2.8 .2 .04 .58 .60 1.00 4.1

[Packfill]

Quote:

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Quote:

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Do you know how many rookies would compare to per 40 stats of a KG, Tmac, Jermain Oneal, and Kobe in their rookie years?

I'm not saying Marvin will be a bust, but I question the logic of comparing per 40 stats when you are using stars who had the most modest rookie seasons. Caron Butler's rookie season compared to some really great players. He's a decent player, but will never be a Tmac or Kobe even though he had a great rookie season.

All we know for sure is that if Marvin will eventually become a star player, his stats didn't reflect that his rookie season. Because we can find a rookie season of a star who had comparable per 40 stats really means nothing, except that Marvin still has a CHANCE of becoming a star.

---

if i'm not mistaken KG is the only one in that group that got any run his rookie year. i'm positive Oneal and Kobe didn't play.

---

Kobe played. But you also have to remember hat even though that was only 10 or so years ago, it was a different era. KG was the first prep-to-pro athlete in a while and Kobe followed shortly thereafter. Now, 8 years later it is much more accepted to play young players - teams draft philosophies have changed as a result of the large number of very young athletes entering the league.

[gsuteke]

95-96 MIN 80 43 28.7 .491 .286 .705 2.2 4.1 6.3 1.8 1.08 1.64 1.38 2.40 10.4

[gsuteke]

96-97 LAL 71 6 15.5 .417 .375 .819 .7 1.2 1.9 1.3 .69 .32 1.58 1.40 7.6

[gsuteke]

05-06 ATL 67 3 23.7 .439 .265 .735 1.4 3.3 4.7 .7 .63 .31 1.00 3.00 7.9

[gsuteke]

Marvin is in the same ballpark as all these guys.

KG started 43 games his rookie season for the Wolves so that says alot about his role on the team Vs. Marvin's on this Hawks squad with JJ and Al chucking up shots.

i think we are seeing the NBA is watered down right now. people are expecting Marvin to come in and contribute immediately. Well, i guess people expect that because they have to !

the flip side of that argument is Marvin was picked #2 while Mcgrady, O'Neal, and Bryant were mid to late first rounders. well perhaps Marvin should have been a mid first rounder also but once again the NBA, and Billy Knight is to be blamed here bigtime for drinking the Koolaid, puts all their eggs in the 'potential' basket these days vs the 'this kid can win basketball games for me right now' basket.

i think your angst towards Marvin is misdirected. it should be directed toward the poor product the NBA is putting on the floor today in general.

[Diesel]

No No NO...

You cannot blame the NBA and BK for where Marvin was picked... They picked him yes, but at some point, Marvin has to live up to the hype... Too many built in excuses for Marvin when you say stuff like...

Quote:

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well perhaps Marvin should have been a mid first rounder also but once again the NBA, and Billy Knight is to be blamed here bigtime for drinking the Koolaid, puts all their eggs in the 'potential' basket these days vs the 'this kid can win basketball games for me right now' basket.

---

That's like going to the steak resturant of the highest reputation.. Ordering a steak that is supposed to be the best in town... Getting a steak that's overcooked and underseasoned and then blaming the customer because he spent $32.00 on the steak.

The customer was going on the reputation of the steak place.. best steak in town.

At some point, the resturant has to live up to the reputation in the steak that it serves.

When you pick a guy #2 overall.. Highest pick in franchise History... You can't turn around 7 months later and say... well, he's probably better suited as a midround pick... but it's the NBA's fault or it's BK's fault. It's BK's fault only to a point. Marvin has the repsonsibility to live up to the hype.

[gsuteke]

Quote:

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No No NO...

You cannot blame the NBA and BK for where Marvin was picked... They picked him yes, but at some point, Marvin has to live up to the hype... Too many built in excuses for Marvin when you say stuff like...

Quote:

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well perhaps Marvin should have been a mid first rounder also but once again the NBA, and Billy Knight is to be blamed here bigtime for drinking the Koolaid, puts all their eggs in the 'potential' basket these days vs the 'this kid can win basketball games for me right now' basket.

---

That's like going to the steak resturant of the highest reputation.. Ordering a steak that is supposed to be the best in town... Getting a steak that's overcooked and underseasoned and then blaming the customer because he spent $32.00 on the steak.

The customer was going on the reputation of the steak place.. best steak in town.

At some point, the resturant has to live up to the reputation in the steak that it serves.

When you pick a guy #2 overall.. Highest pick in franchise History... You can't turn around 7 months later and say... well, he's probably better suited as a midround pick... but it's the NBA's fault or it's BK's fault. It's BK's fault only to a point. Marvin has the repsonsibility to live up to the hype.

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i didn't pick him.

and thanks for proving my point with your steakhouse analogy. if that particular steakhouse has the reputation for being the best in town and that's what happens then the product (in this case the steakhouse market vs the NBA) is obviously watered down and overrated in general.

it's the NBA and the sh!tty product they are trying to sell to us. if Billy Knight didn't pick Marvin there would have been GMs lining up right behind him to do so.

how many rookies are contributing significantly this year? a dozen? the product sucks. thanks for the analogy Diesel.