Marvin has done nothing to earn 8 Million per.

[exodus]

funny how $5 million dollars is chump change when it's not your money.

First of all that comment has no relevance to my post. My post was about the cap hit. $1 million per year is the rough equivalent of a minimum contract, hardly

enough to get up in arms over.

Since it isn't Diesels money or your money i don't see why you guys would be so bothered by $1 million per year. After all they wasted all that money on Speedy

and wasted $3.5 million/yr on Blo Wright, he of the 2.5 PER.

[Diesel]

You said the average was less than 8 mil. Now there are these qualifications. Not surprising. By that same logic we could argue that some of those guys are underpaid.

Here is what I said.

Average Sf starter salary is not 8 million per. when you don't do good things. Get the comps. Compare what is done on the court to salary. You're suggesting overpaying Marvin.

What I was saying is that yes, you have your Lebrons, your Anthonys, and Your Grangers but obviously Marvin is not ont his level because these guys do good things for their teams. These guys are MVP candidate or Allstar type guys. Those are good things. Get the comps... that means, go find a guy like Marvin who hasn't been to the allstar game and is not in the MVP race and is not a first or second option scorer for his team.

When you have done that, the average you will receive is not going to be 8 million. It will be less.

[Diesel]

And the biggest skewing of the truth being told on this board, is about the team supposedly playing better without Marvin. The Hawks at one point last year were 22 - 11. During that time, it was a relatively healthy starting group that were winning games for us.

Uhm. 82 gamessays it much better than I need to.

Take any team with Marvin in it. Find it's analog with Joe at the 3 and Murray in it. Look at +/-, look at off. Look at Def. You will see that we're better with Murray at 2 than Marvin at the 3.

Then take a look here....

Again, I don't have to say much, the numbers speak...

Without Marvin, we're a BETTER defensive team?

I thought Marvin's thing was defense? If he's supposed to be such a top defender, how do we get better when he's off the court?

Again, this is not just some 5 minutes that marvin's not playing, marvin missed about 21 games. That's good sampling.

We are better defensively without him and we don't lose anything on offense without him.

I await whatever Spin you try to put on this.

[exodus]

Uhm. 82 gamessays it much better than I need to.

Take any team with Marvin in it. Find it's analog with Joe at the 3 and Murray in it. Look at +/-, look at off. Look at Def. You will see that we're better with Murray at 2 than Marvin at the 3.

Then take a look here....

Again, I don't have to say much, the numbers speak...

Without Marvin, we're a BETTER defensive team?

I thought Marvin's thing was defense? If he's supposed to be such a top defender, how do we get better when he's off the court?

Again, this is not just some 5 minutes that marvin's not playing, marvin missed about 21 games. That's good sampling.

We are better defensively without him and we don't lose anything on offense without him.

I await whatever Spin you try to put on this.

Since you probably didn't notice I should point out that the three top 5 man units in Win% all had Marvin on them.

[EazyRoc]

Here is what I said.

What I was saying is that yes, you have your Lebrons, your Anthonys, and Your Grangers but obviously Marvin is not ont his level because these guys do good things for their teams. These guys are MVP candidate or Allstar type guys. Those are good things. Get the comps... that means, go find a guy like Marvin who hasn't been to the allstar game and is not in the MVP race and is not a first or second option scorer for his team.

When you have done that, the average you will receive is not going to be 8 million. It will be less.

Luol Deng

Tayshaun Prince (went to the all-star game, but as a standalone player didn't deserve it)

Troy murphy

Chris Kaman

Lamar Odom

Andrew Bynum

Larry Hughes

Andre Miller

Jason Richardson

Richard Jefferson

Most of those people make well over 8 million. No All Star game. No MVP race.

However, I think it would make sense to find the average salary for starting SFs. I bet it is somewhere around 7 or 8 million..

[thefloydian]

Here is what I said.

What I was saying is that yes, you have your Lebrons, your Anthonys, and Your Grangers but obviously Marvin is not ont his level because these guys do good things for their teams. These guys are MVP candidate or Allstar type guys. Those are good things. Get the comps... that means, go find a guy like Marvin who hasn't been to the allstar game and is not in the MVP race and is not a first or second option scorer for his team.

When you have done that, the average you will receive is not going to be 8 million. It will be less.

Well, no, that's not really what you said. But even if we go with it now you're mostly wrong. Plus there's the added problem of a lot of the guys like that still playing on their rookie contract.

[ShooterMcGavin]

However, I think it would make sense to find the average salary for starting SFs. I bet it is somewhere around 7 or 8 million..

Multiple posters continue to bring up this point and Diesel either ignores it or qualifies it.

[Plainview1981]

@ Hotlanta . . . Marvin was 6 - 13 FG and 11 - 14 FT in that Minnesota game.

Plus he grabbed 10 rebounds.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=290206030

It was against Charlotte in a game JJ missed. Sorry.

[Plainview1981]

Yea Portland just threw a 4 year deal at an average of 8 million per year (starts at 10 million) at a PF that averaged 13ppg and 8rpg last year on a division rival that happens to be already over the luxury tax and in a small market.....and they still matched. It's not boding well for that particular argument.

Somebody would be making an offer or you probably would at least hear some talk from other teams. I mean, if I'm a gm and I consider Marvin valuable I'd challenge the unstable Hawks group. It just seems like common sense. Some how Marvin fails to make it up the ladder on team despite all this talent you guys think he has. When the teams second leading scorer was out a month Marvin failed to step up and take his game to another level. People can try to ignore it, but that's a fact. The best argument you can make is two or three games against really bad teams like Charlotte and Minnesota. One in which he shot really poorly.

5 years later and Marvin Williams is still the 4th or 5th option. I'm not seeing Michael Jordan ahead of him... I see him getting outscored by an aging Mike Bibby and the erratic Josh Smith. When do we get to see this outstanding ability? When? When he is 31? Instead of keeping Flip and increasing Marvin's shots... The Hawks have brought in Crawford who will probably score more than Marvin also. Marvin could possibly be the 5th leading scorer this season. He might actually take a step back in the scoring department cause Crawford is likely to shoot more than Flip.

If the team thinks Marvin can handle the load they probably should consider trading Josh Smith because the Hawks aren't doing anything of note with both Josh Smith and Marvin Williams starting. Period.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Hotlanta1981

[exodus]

Somebody would be making an offer or you probably would at least hear some talk from other teams. I mean, if I'm a gm and I consider Marvin valuable I'd challenge the unstable Hawks group. It just seems like common sense.

Common sense? Here are some RFA's from last summer that didn't get any offers from other teams in July. Remember that was before the economy collapsed.

Josh Smith

Biedrins

Okafor

Deng

Gordon

Iggy

[Plainview1981]

Common sense? Here are some RFA's from last summer that didn't get any offers from other teams in July. Remember that was before the economy collapsed.

Josh Smith

Biedrins

Okafor

Deng

Gordon

Iggy

At least Philly was after Josh Smith? Wasn't Ben Gordon looking for an outrageous contract last season? Whatever the case, call me when people are knocking down their door to sign Marvin at 8-10 million a year. I think teams were even wanting Childress at this time last year.

[exodus]

At least Philly was after Josh Smith? Wasn't Ben Gordon looking for an outrageous contract last season? Whatever the case, call me when people are knocking down their door to sign Marvin at 8-10 million a year. I think teams were even wanting Childress at this time last year.

Childress didn't get an offer from another team in July. Neither did any of those other guys. That is a fact.

Edited July 17, 2009 by exodus

[EazyRoc]

Childress didn't get an offer from another team in July. Neither did any of those other guys. That is a fact.

Except for Josh Smith, but I get what you're saying.

[exodus]

Except for Josh Smith, but I get what you're saying.

Smith didn't get an offer in July either.

[MaceCase]

Somebody would be making an offer or you probably would at least hear some talk from other teams. I mean, if I'm a gm and I consider Marvin valuable I'd challenge the unstable Hawks group. It just seems like common sense. Some how Marvin fails to make it up the ladder on team despite all this talent you guys think he has. When the teams second leading scorer was out a month Marvin failed to step up and take his game to another level. People can try to ignore it, but that's a fact. The best argument you can make is two or three games against really bad teams like Charlotte and Minnesota. One in which he shot really poorly.

5 years later and Marvin Williams is still the 4th or 5th option. I'm not seeing Michael Jordan ahead of him... I see him getting outscored by an aging Mike Bibby and the erratic Josh Smith. When do we get to see this outstanding ability? When? When he is 31? Instead of keeping Flip and increasing Marvin's shots... The Hawks have brought in Crawford who will probably score more than Marvin also. Marvin could possibly be the 5th leading scorer this season. He might actually take a step back in the scoring department cause Crawford is likely to shoot more than Flip.

If the team thinks Marvin can handle the load they probably should consider trading Josh Smith because the Hawks aren't doing anything of note with both Josh Smith and Marvin Williams starting. Period.

Again you would be hard pressed to make that argument succeed. The Jazz are 3 million above the luxury tax as is so that is 6 million in salary (3 in salary 3 in tax) they will actually have to pay. Portland made the challenge that a small market team that already happens to have a high paid player at the same position wouldn't dare match an offer that had a starting salary of 10 million, pushing their team salary to 82 million for next season. Guess what? The Jazz matched it, the Blazers' gamble failed. No matter how unstable you think the ownership group is, they just handed out big contracts to Zaza and Bibby not to mention took on Crawfords 9 million dollar deal. We also happen to be far below the luxury tax so do you honestly think a team would attempt the same failed gamble that Portland tried? All in all they tried to pay a guy who's going to be their backup PF a starting salary of 10mill for 13.5ppg and 8.6rpg while you are whining over paying a starting SF a starting salary of 7mill for 13.9ppg and 6.3rpg. Are those extra 2 rebounds actually worth 3 million more?

Edited July 17, 2009 by CrawfulToCrawesome

[NineOhTheRino]

5 years later and Marvin Williams is still the 4th or 5th option. I'm not seeing Michael Jordan ahead of him... I see him getting outscored by an aging Mike Bibby and the erratic Josh Smith. When do we get to see this outstanding ability? When? When he is 31? Instead of keeping Flip and increasing Marvin's shots... The Hawks have brought in Crawford who will probably score more than Marvin also. Marvin could possibly be the 5th leading scorer this season. He might actually take a step back in the scoring department cause Crawford is likely to shoot more than Flip.

I agree that $6.5 - 7 mil would be a fair offer. Now if the market thinks Marvin is worth 8 million then so be it but I'm not throwing 8 mil at the #5 guy (sorry but Flip was more important) on the team. Yeah it's a chance but what are you out if you're on the losing side? Gamble. No team (esp. in such poor economic times) will offer Marvin a dollar over $8 mill so either way you come out feeling fine.

[Plainview1981]

Childress didn't get an offer from another team in July. Neither did any of those other guys. That is a fact.

What it boils down tois if Marvin is worthy, where is the interest?

I could have sworn the whole thing with Philly went down in late July of last year. Either way, were probably talking a couple of weeks at the most.

Marvin's just not that good. That's why the Hawks are still going to erratic offensive players like Bibby and Josh and Marvin is standing at the 3pt line picking his nose.

Marvin the explosive scorer that the Hawks just don't want to go to. When is Marvin's role going to increase on this team if he is capable? So many questions and such few answers.

[Plainview1981]

Again you would be hard pressed to make that argument succeed. The Jazz are 3 million above the luxury tax as is so that is 6 million in salary (3 in salary 3 in tax) they will actually have to pay. Portland made the challenge that a small market team that already happens to have a high paid player at the same position wouldn't dare match an offer that had a starting salary of 10 million, pushing their team salary to 82 million for next season. Guess what? The Jazz matched it, the Blazers' gamble failed. No matter how unstable you think the ownership group is, they just handed out big contracts to Zaza and Bibby not to mention took on Crawfords 9 million dollar deal. We also happen to be far below the luxury tax so do you honestly think a team would attempt the same failed gamble that Portland tried? All in all they tried to pay a guy who's going to be their backup PF a starting salary of 10mill for 13.5ppg and 8.6rpg while you are whining over paying a starting SF a starting salary of 7mill for 13.9ppg and 6.3rpg. Are those extra 2 rebounds actually worth 3 million more?

If you think a player is valuable... Offer the contract. So what if the Hawks match? I mean, is there rumblings of any interest at all? What did Portland really lose? Their team is a D@mned good the way that it is. Getting a Milsap would be icing on the cake. What did Portland lose by Utah matching? It was just a case of the rich trying to get richer. They didn;t get richer, but they didn't lose money either.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Hotlanta1981

[MaceCase]

What it boils down tois if Marvin is worthy, where is the interest?

I could have sworn the whole thing with Philly went down in late July of last year. Either way, were probably talking a couple of weeks at the most.

Marvin's just not that good. That's why the Hawks are still going to erratic offensive players like Bibby and Josh and Marvin is standing at the 3pt line picking his nose.

Marvin the explosive scorer that the Hawks just don't want to go to. When is Marvin's role going to increase on this team if he is capable? So many questions and such few answers.

When is Josh not going to be parked by the three point line? When is Joe not going to dominate the ball for 20 seconds at a time? When is Bibby going to actually run a pick and roll? When is Al going to get atleast 4 post sets called for him?

There seem to be plenty of questions regarding our offense but i agree with you Marvin is definetly the cause for the inefficiency of it all. He just f***s up the team scheme.

[MaceCase]

If you think a player is valuable... Offer the contract. So what if the Hawks match? I mean, is there rumblings of any interest at all? What did Portland really lose? Their team is a D@mned good the way that it is. Getting a Milsap would be icing on the cake. What did Portland lose by Utah matching? It was just a case of the rich trying to get richer. They didn;t get richer, but they didn't lose money either.

Why don't we offer Lebron a contract for that matter, or Wade, or hell even Gortat from this season, there's nothing to lose? I think the answer is clear, why waste your time chasing something you know you are not going to get. They felt sure of themselves that they'd get him that's why they pursued him, you don't half assed offer people 10million dollars. What you stand to lose is that the time you spent pursuing one FA is time you missed out on others. What you are missing is that there are tons of RFAs out there yet none seem to be garnering much interest, how come? Why aren't teams just making the offers?