Did the fans understand what we had in Joe?

[AHF]

Joe was a very efficient scorer playing with Nash earlier in his career and increased his efficiency last year when Josh became the #1 option. I expect that Joe in NJ will also be a more efficient player with fewer FGA, assists, and turnovers.

[CongoP]

JJ has always been a player who lets media and fans get him out of his game, how many times can you remember him missing clutch tech free thows just because all eyes were on him. I'm anxious to see if our fans get to him when he plays here that'll let me know how much he cared about being a Hawk.

[red2play]

IF JJ were 26, I'd be mad if we traded him but he's 31 and "pretty good", not great. What good is it to have an older Iso-joe and get bounced out of the playoffs every year in the first round. Didn't we see the same thing with Nique? We kept him too long and got nothing after he left. I want the prospect of getting better FA's and seeing just how good Horford and JSmooth are without JJ.

[Guest]

I've always been a Joe fan and I know what we had, unfortunately he always left me wanting more. The ASG did him a disservice by not building a team around him to exploits his talents and by giving him that contract which just did not enable them to add anything of substance to the team.

[Bawse]

The owners never put Joe with another star. We never did it.

In a nutshell. Instead, we treated Joe AS the superstar and it backfired. Can't do that when the man can't be "The Man"...

[Nicholasp27]

The closest we got was Crawford. Crawford became 6th man of the year and then last year, Crawford went into obscurity. I think Deron/Joe will be a very tough combo. Both of those guys play tough defense. Teams will have a hard time.

Yeah, cause crawford is a bigger star than all-NBA center al horford...

[APE]

Joe never tuned out the coach.

OH SH*T so every play in the fourth quarter has been a fade-away long 2 with 1 second on the shot clock?

[Guest]

Evaluating a player, you probably should ignore the contract. So yeah, Joe was good. The problem is I am a fan of the team first, then the players. When you evaluate a team you must take into account the contract. If you don't then you don't understand how a team functions.Blame the A$G, Sund, or Joe for the contract that put us in a horrible position? Hard to disentangle, they all are responsible.

[DrReality]

We had a good but not great player. We had a guy, who did a lot of good things for this franchise and carried himself, more or less, as a professional on and off the court. Could Joe have been more of a charismatic leader? Sure. I think that's fair. Should he have taken less money to play here so the franchise could have more financial flexibility? Of course not. Who would take less money? I blame the atlanta spirit for the contract, not Joe. Could he have been more clutch in the playoffs, especially in these last playoffs where a Paul Pierce who could barely walk and is older, out played him? Well hell yeah. I think we as fans expected more and he let us down. Does that mean he's a terrible person? Of course not. So is there anything out of line or that I've said or am I just being a "hater?"

Agreed I don't hate JJ. But I don't respect him for how he handled adversity. That's when you find out what a man is made of

[gsuteke]

Try this. Hide under a table. Look around yourself. In the likely event you see Joe Johnson hiding with you under said table chances are its NBA playoffs time.

[thecampster]

What we had in Joe.Career stats:17.8 ppg on 15.4 shots per game, 4.4 apg, 4.2 rpg, 2.2 turnovers per game...44.4% shooter. 3.2 FT attempts per game...most of which were gimmees at the end of regulation during a win.Who was Joe Johnson? a guy who when you combined his turnovers and shot attempts was good for 1.01 points per possession that ended with Joe.Let's compare that to other shooting guards of the current or last era.Reggie Miller - 18.2 ppg on 12.4 shots per game, 3.0 apg, 2.4 rpg, 1.7 to. Miller was good for 1.29 points per possession that ended with him.There is your difference. Nothing else. Reggie wasn't good enough to will his team to a championship and he was a 28% more efficient scorer.Joe Johnson was advertised as a Reggie Miller. He turned out to be a 12 million dollar a year, very good shooting guard in a 20 million dollar a year contract.Let's look at another good G-F who wasn't quite good enough. Clyde Drexler.The Glide scored 20.4 ppg for his career on 16.3 shots per game. He pulled down 6.1 rebounds and got 5.6 assists. Although he committed 2.7 turnovers he also had 2.0 steals per game. He was good for 1.07 points per possesion that ended with him.This is the bar for the "almost Jordans". You are either Drexler who throw your body in for the extra rebounds and get the extra assists or you are Miller who is a very efficient scorer. If you aren't, you aren't great..you are very good and very good is what you build your team around at Center/PG....not at SG. I can only think of 3championship teams built around a SG Bulls, Heat, Lakers. 2 of those included Shaq for the most part the others included a guy named Pippen. Joe is no Kobe, Wade and definately no Jordan. You don't build around Joe. You don't give him license to dribble out the clock like Kobe, let him take the last shot like Jordan or trust him to do whatever it takes like Wade. He isn't that guy. That's what we had in Joe. A really nice player who could up his stats when he had no one on the roster. He has now been run into the ground by Woodson and needed to go. Every year will be a down year for Joe. He will quickly be Ray Allen, then McGrady.

Edited July 25, 2012 by thecampster

[DrReality]

Try this. Hide under a table. Look around yourself. In the likely event you see Joe Johnson hiding with you under said table chances are its NBA playoffs time.

An overstatement, but funny

[NJHAWK]

He was an anchor, both on the court and on the salary cap.

[Plainview1981]

If this team wins 45-50 games. Then what?How will Joe be viewed then? How will he be viewed if Ferry basically replaces him with a bunch of role players? I just have this feeling that Ferry doesn't think Joe is hard to replace.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

What we had in Joe.

Career stats:

17.8 ppg on 15.4 shots per game, 4.4 apg, 4.2 rpg, 2.2 turnovers per game...44.4% shooter. 3.2 FT attempts per game...most of which were gimmees at the end of regulation during a win.

Who was Joe Johnson? a guy who when you combined his turnovers and shot attempts was good for 1.01 points per possession that ended with Joe.

Joe Johnson as an Atlanta Hawk:

20.9 ppg on 17.6 shots per game . . . 5.2 asst, 4.2 rebs, 2.5 turnovers per game . . 44.9% shooter . . . 4.1 FT attemps per game . . most of which clinched the game at the end of regulation for the Hawks.

Who was Joe Johnson? A guy that was forced to transition from one of the best catch and shoot guys in the game, to one of the most versatile guards in the game on both ends of the floor. And because he never played with another legit PG to get him the ball in the right spots, he had to score almost 60% of his points unassisted. And he still was a 6 time All-Star.

Let's compare that to other shooting guards of the current or last era.

Reggie Miller - 18.2 ppg on 12.4 shots per game, 3.0 apg, 2.4 rpg, 1.7 to. Miller was good for 1.29 points per possession that ended with him.

There is your difference. Nothing else. Reggie wasn't good enough to will his team to a championship and he was a 28% more efficient scorer.

Miller was never asked to play PG, SG, and SF . . sometimes in the same game

Miller was never asked to defend the PG, SG, and SF positions . . and sometimes even the PF position . . sometimes in the same game

Miller was never asked to create his own offense on 60% of his shots.

Miller was never asked to be the playmaker on ANY team he played on.

Reggie Miller was the greatest catch and shoot guard in the history of the NBA and arguably the most clutch shooter of all time.

Reggie Miller played with good passing point guards Vern Fleming ( averaged 6.6 assists per game in the years he played with Miller ) and Mark Jackson ( averaged 8 assists per game in the years he played with Miller )

The main PGs Joe Johnson played with in ATL?

- Tyronn Lue ( 3 asst/gm " while playing with JJ in ATL" )

- Speedy Claxton ( 4.2 asst/gm " " )

- Acie Law ( 1.8 asst/gm " " )

- Anthony Johnson ( 4.7 asst/gm " " )

- Mike Bibby ( 4.5 asst/gm " " )

- Jeff Teague ( 2.9 asst/gm " " )

Who was Joe Johnson? A SG/SF that had to create offense for his PGs, instead of his PGs creating offense for himself.

Joe Johnson was advertised as a Reggie Miller. He turned out to be a 12 million dollar a year, very good shooting guard in a 20 million dollar a year contract.

Actually, Joe Johnson was advertised as the "Black Larry Bird", because of his versatility as a player. In essence though, he was a 21st century version of Golden St/Sacramento guard Mitch Richmond, a guy like JJ who statistically was a very good SG, but only played on a few teams worth anything . . and no team worth anything during his years in Sacramento.

Let's look at another good G-F who wasn't quite good enough. Clyde Drexler.

The Glide scored 20.4 ppg for his career on 16.3 shots per game. He pulled down 6.1 rebounds and got 5.6 assists. Although he committed 2.7 turnovers he also had 2.0 steals per game. He was good for 1.07 points per possesion that ended with him.

And while he was much more talented than JJ ( and an athletic freak ), he's also a guy that had the benefit of playing with a very good PG in Terry Porter. Had JJ played with an "in his prime" Mike Bibby, maybe things would've been a little different for the Hawks. Instead, he gets Bibby at the tail end of his career, with Bibby giving us 1.5 good years and 1.5 sucky years.

This is the bar for the "almost Jordans". You are either Drexler who throw your body in for the extra rebounds and get the extra assists or you are Miller who is a very efficient scorer. If you aren't, you aren't great..you are very good and very good is what you build your team around at Center/PG....not at SG.

Or you're Mitch Richmond . . . as I said earlier . . . a guy with All-Star talent comparable to the two you mentioned above, whose team never properly built the squad around him. So you don't know how good he REALLY could've been. Had he played along a good center or a good PG, maybe Richmond isn't known as a good SG, but is known as a great SG.

Does a Richmond - Webber - Bibby squad get to the NBA Finals with Mitch as the focal point of the offense? I know that Richmond was traded for Webber, but had Sacramento had that sort of "Big 3" to throw at people, maybe they play in an NBA Finals or even win a title.

I can only think of 3championship teams built around a SG Bulls, Heat, Lakers. 2 of those included Shaq for the most part the others included a guy named Pippen.

Correct.

And even those teams build around a big man, needed either a superstar guard/wing, or a couple of all-star players around that big center. The fact is that one player usually doesn't win a title by himself. Not even the great Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant. they need other players in the mix to help them get there.

Joe is no Kobe, Wade and definately no Jordan. You don't build around Joe.

Nope. Instead, you build around Josh Smith I guess.

You don't give him license to dribble out the clock like Kobe, let him take the last shot like Jordan or trust him to do whatever it takes like Wade. He isn't that guy.

He was forced to be that guy, because of the lack of talent around him. He was forced to go ISO, when the 2nd best offensive option on the team was a Tyronn Lue, or a Jamal Crawford, or a Josh Smith. Instead of doing a combination of going ISO, and playing the type of catch and shoot role that he had in Phoenix, he had to do it all for everybody . . . at least until Horford entered his 2nd year.

Then the new coach decides that it's best if the team as a whole take a bigger role in the offense, instead of maximizing the abilities of his All-Star guard. Let's give more 16+ feet jumpshots to Josh Smith, instead of giving more scoring opportunites for your most talented and versatile scorer.

That's what we had in Joe. A really nice player who could up his stats when he had no one on the roster. He has now been run into the ground by Woodson and needed to go. Every year will be a down year for Joe. He will quickly be Ray Allen, then McGrady.

If he quickly becomes Ray Allen in Boston ( 16.7 ppg . . 47% FG . . 41% 3FG ), the Nets will be a dangerous team next year, especially when they have a PG that can score 20 ppg and dish out 10 apg, along with a center that can score 20 ppg, and a bunch of role players who can play defense.

The funny thing is that Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce couldn't win it all by themselves. But when you combine them, and draft a defense/pass happy PG, they beccome champions.

The Hawks simply messed up while they had an All-Star SG in their midst. Missed on the 2005 draft with Marvin. Missed on the 2006 draft with Shelden. Had Horford fall into our lap in the 2007 draft, but missed on Acie. Refused to trade either Horford or Smith to bring in a better fitting player.

7 years wasted . . . trying to see if JJ could save us with a bunch of decent, but not star level talent. Trying to see if he could be Lebron ( another guy who couldn't win a title without major help . . and he knew it ).

No Camp. The issue isn't/wasn't should the Hawks build around JJ.

The issue is why couldn't the Hawks get better talent to play WITH JJ?

Many people watching the Hawks had long said that we should've traded some of our talent for either better veteran players or better fitting players. But the Hawks hung onto what they had.

And just think, we're still hoping that a guy like Josh Smith reaches his "potential" and becomes an All-Star or superstar. Not only that, we're about to build the team around HIM.

Maybe Josh can do more of this to win games for us

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLsHMb-tnNI

Because asking him to be the offensive go-to guy at the end of games to keep us close or win a game, isn't in his skill set.

[thecampster]

Joe Johnson as an Atlanta Hawk: 20.9 ppg on 17.6 shots per game . . . 5.2 asst, 4.2 rebs, 2.5 turnovers per game . . 44.9% shooter . . . 4.1 FT attemps per game . . most of which clinched the game at the end of regulation for the Hawks.

This is you seeing what you want to see. I see a guy who took 17.6 shots a game. turned it over 2.5 times a game. Dribbled out the shot clock and passed to a bail out another couple of times a game. 17.6 shots +2.5 T/O = 19.9 possessions ending with Joe Johnson. 20.9 points / 19.9 shots = 1.05 points per possession that ended with him. Let me give you a comparison on the Hawks. Marvin Williams who we all love to hate. career 11.5 ppg. on 9.1 shots with 1.2 turnovers. 1.12 points per possession ending with Marvin. Marvin doesn't have to create his own shot you say. Okay...let's try new Hawk Devin Harris. He's a point guard, shorter than Joe, turns the ball over more per 36...lets see what his says. 13.1 ppg for his career - 9.8 attempts, 2.2 turnovers. 1.09 points per possession. How about another 18 ppg SG Eric Gordon 18.2 ppg for his career on 13.5 attempts, 2.4 turnovers 1.14 points per possession. It's simple. JJ wouldn't draw fouls so his scoring was inefficient. The numbers bear that out over and over again. Double teams you say....Lebron is doubled, Durant gets doubled, Wade got doubled. Those are excuses. I know what we had in JJ....a very good one on one offensive player. But not someone you build a team around. Not someone worth 20 million dollars a year. Ferry is doing the right thing right now. Committee is better with this group than relying on Joe Freaking Johnson and his inefficiencies. Who was Joe Johnson. 60 regular season games last year. He shot under 40% 18 times. 30% of the time you could count on your 20 million dollar man to shoot under 40%. Playoffs last year...37.3% from the field. 25% from 3. Career playoffs. 62 games. 41% shooter, 16.9 ppg on 15.4 attempts and 2.3 turnovers for .955 points per possession that ended with Joe Freaking Johnson. That's who Joe Johnson is. Just wait till NY fans start asking these same questions.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

That's not what I "see". That was what "was".

20.9 ppg

5.2 asst

4.2 rebs

With those totals only going down once Drew took control of the team. In 5 years under Woody, these were his numbers.

21.7 ppg ( on 18.2 shots )

5.5 asst

4.4 rebs

Same 45% FG shooting. Same 37% 3FG shooting.

With virtually no one setting up shots for him 60% of the time.

He couldn't get it done by himself in the playoffs Even so-called superstars can't get it done by themselves ( ask Carmelo ). Both needed help. Both rarely got it. And JJ didn't get it done nearly enough on his own.

If JJ wasn't the player to build around for the Hawks, that's fine. Seven years is long enough.

The question now, is Josh Smith the player to build around? Because he's next in line to get the type of max contract that people will be saying that Josh isn't worth, just like JJ. And if we don't land a superstar with our "cap space", Josh becomes "the man".

We'll go from ISO Joe, that everybody despised . . . to Spot Up Jumper Josh ( 16.7 shots + 2.5 turnovers = 19.2 )

18.8 points / 19.2 = .98 points per possession

Is that worthy to be built around? Because that's what exactly we're about to do.

[thecampster]

That's not what I "see". That was what "was".

20.9 ppg

5.2 asst

4.2 rebs

With those totals only going down once Drew took control of the team. In 5 years under Woody, these were his numbers.

21.7 ppg ( on 18.2 shots )

5.5 asst

4.4 rebs

Same 45% FG shooting. Same 37% 3FG shooting.

With virtually no one setting up shots for him 60% of the time.

He couldn't get it done by himself in the playoffs Even so-called superstars can't get it done by themselves ( ask Carmelo ). Both needed help. Both rarely got it. And JJ didn't get it done nearly enough on his own.

If JJ wasn't the player to build around for the Hawks, that's fine. Seven years is long enough.

The question now, is Josh Smith the player to build around? Because he's next in line to get the type of max contract that people will be saying that Josh isn't worth, just like JJ. And if we don't land a superstar with our "cap space", Josh becomes "the man".

We'll go from ISO Joe, that everybody despised . . . to Spot Up Jumper Josh ( 16.7 shots + 2.5 turnovers = 19.2 )

18.8 points / 19.2 = .98 points per possession

Is that worthy to be built around? Because that's what exactly we're about to do.

No argument there. For his Career, Josh's points per possession are almost the same. But no one is saying give Josh the max either. Josh is a superior defender/team defender but not as good offensively...no argument. And he is not worthy of the max either. My favorite player, yes...max...no.

[NineOhTheRino]

You know what Joe never did? Ask for a trade. You know what Joe never did? Cry and mope up the court. You know what Joe never did? Complain about his position or defensive assignment. Joe never came in out of shape or tuned out the coach. I love the Hawks and our current team automatically has my 13 favorite players on it. But, some of you guys sound ridiculous holding a grudge against the best guy we've had suit up for this team in decades. All because of a contract that he was offered.

You know what else Joe never did? Lead this team past the 2nd round. and... If he's so special why does he have to be surrounded by other stars to shine? He's a good player but relax making him out to be anything more than that. Edited July 25, 2012 by NineOhTheRino

[Sothron]

You know what else Joe never did? Lead this team past the 2nd round. and... If he's so special why does he have to be surrounded by other stars to shine? He's a good player but relax making him out to be anything more than that.

You do realize even the great Michael Jordan wasn't "so special" according to you because he didn't "shine" until he had a team around him, right? Joe never had a player on his level while in Atlanta.