JJ's best legacy as I see it.

[MaceCase]

Of course you don't. Because your post will go completely the opposite way of my post, and try to tear JJ down at every point. It's all good.

I mean, because I know the teams in the Western Conference had no idea who Joe Johnson was before he came to ATL, because of the limited number of games he played against Western Conference competition ( 182 games + 15 playoff games in 4 years vs the West before coming to ATL ). They had no idea who he was or what his game was about.

Not only that. JJ, because of the limited amount of games he played vs the West before coming to ATL ( 182 reg. season games + 15 playoff games ), couldn't possibly play the fast paced style of play out West. He just couldn't do it. And he couldn't even put up even better numbers as a Hawk vs the West, because he is/was incapable of improving as a player ( averaged 20+ ppg vs the West in 6 of his 7 years in ATL ).

Wow, what an amount of childishness in an attempt at mock sarcasm. If you want to be real with yourself, mention that Joe averaged 10.64 points, 3.44 rebounds and 2.82 assists.........when playing in the West. Impressive no? But why mention the amount of games he played as a Sun.......but leave off the amount he played as a Hawk against the West? Curious no? Is it because the sample isn't relevant? I certainly think so.

Of course. Because JJ was only mediocre that season ( 9th in the NBA in scoring that year and 4th in scoring in the West. ). It doesn't matter that he was one of 7 players who averaged at least 25 pts - 4 rebs - 4 assists that year.

It doesn't matter that every single one of those guys ( whether they played on a bad team or not ), made the All-Star team that year.

Nope.

Because he's Joe Johnson, we're going to leave him off of that list, in favor of either for Josh Howard or Jason Terry, because they just HAVE to have 2 players from the Mavs on the team. A Mavs team that was supposed to be the 3rd greatest team in NBA history . . . but get bounced by a 42 - 40 team that hadn't made the playoffs in 12 years . . . in the First Round.

More tantrums. First let's start off that Joe was an injury replacement selected by David Stern, not the coaches this year. So what was the goodness of all those stats huh? Coaches sure as f*** didn't care, David Stern came in and did the "I need a guy from one of my top markets" David Lee/Kris Kaman dance and made Joe an All Star.

Now North is going to pretend that All Stars are picked solely on stats rather than team records...... That's why Andre Iguodala and Luol Deng make it in over Josh Smith but, and I guess I'll have to ask this outright now, make a case for Monta Ellis then? He's gone 25.5, 5, 4 and 2 steals. 24, 5.6, 3.5 and 2 steals then 20, 6, 3.4 and 1.5 steals.......nary a selection. I'm sure If I went on basketballreference and tweezed the sliders out I could find that he's only 1 of 6 people in history to do that over a span, but why no 3 All Stars, North? Why not even 1? While we are on the subject of the Warriors, since you want to mention Dallas losing in April had influence on the selections in February, why doesn't Baron Davis make it? He was the ochestrator of the "We Believe" Warriors with great averages of 20 points, 8 assists, 4.4 rebounds and 2 steals, oh but Joe Johnson's stats conquer all this year!

Of course. Because the goal of this exercise is to keep Joe Johnson OUT of the All-Star game at ALL COSTS. When he has the stats to get in the game, let's raise the bar and say that his team isn't winning enough. When he's performed at a high level for now the 3rd year in a row and has made a name for himself, that doesn't matter either. We are going to continue to throw every road block in the way, so that JJ doesn't get in.

22 - 6 - and 4 that year? The 3rd year in a row that you've been at least a 20 - 4 and 4 player? Nope. Sorry JJ. You get no consideration whatsoever. Oh, and you don't play defense better than those guys either. Don't forget that.

OH shit! The defense excuse for an All Star game! You have to know that an argument is already getting weak when you are separating Joe on defense. Of course, last I heard SJax, Baron, Deron and Ginobili play or played defense then and were all on better teams but oh, Joe got two more points for a losing squad, his stats are clearly in a different hemisphere.

And let's put the final bar to put in front of Joe Johnson's quest to be an All-Star.

The INJURY BAR

Let's cite the fact that there are people supposedly better than JJ are hurt, to down whatever chance or shot he would have had at an All-Star berth. Because we all know that injuries are NOT part of the game. Injuries are NOT supposed to happen to star players. And because of that, any player that benefits from that star being out, is a SCRUB.

53 team wins ( and possibly could've been higher if the Hawks played in the West and not the East ( .700 winning percentage vs West teams that year . . 21 - 9 . . . .615 winning percentage vs the East . . 32 - 20 )

The consistency to be a 20 pt - 4 reb and 4 ast player for 5 years straight ( 2005 - 10 ), with only 3 other players in the league who could claim to do that in that 5 year span ( Lebron, Kobe, Wade ).

How sad is this? You were arguing for Joe getting in over Kidd for the last replacement for that All Star game.....I mention that Kidd was the last of 3 injury replacements. So to make an argument that Joe is deserving to be an All Star......let's mention that he'd make it if not 1, not 2, but 3 guys have to go down before he get's a consideration. Oh yea, that's a strong argument there. If the President, Vice President, and Secretary of State all die in a plane crash I can tell people that America voted me president in the first place. Bravo! And bringing up the team wins as a result of Joe..... not that that other All Star and All NBAer, that All Defense player and 6MoY had anyhing to do with it.

In conclusion, you'd have to be a tremendous fanboy to say that Joe Johnson would be a lock for any of his All Star selections had he remained amongst the West guard crop or even if the East boasted the same depth at his position. This should be made clear by the fact that he has only one All NBA selection to his name which flies in the face of those numerous exhibition game selections.

[clicklandshopping]

It's usually how it works... One guy builds the foundation and gets things rolling, then gets axed. It's the next guy that comes in, finishes it off, and completes the goal. Before JJ, the Hawks were horrible. Joe came in, made the team credible, helped us get the playoffs 5 straight times, and was an All-Star six times, but he hit his peak with the team and it will be the next guy that will get the team over the top... Let's just hope he shows up sooner than later and before this train derails...

Exactly!

[NineOhTheRino]

And Nique is in the Hall of fame.

So you're putting Joe and Nique in the same category?

[Diesel]

So you're putting Joe and Nique in the same category?

No somebody else did when they said we don't need to talk about anybody that didn't get their team past the second round. Oh that was you? Edited August 3, 2012 by Diesel

[benhillboy]

I didn't know Joe had a bronze medal. In his 5 All-Star appearances, he's averaged 18 minutes, shot .412, .348 from 3, attempted a single free throw and missed it, got 4 rebounds, has a 1:1 assist to turnover ratio, and averaged 7 points. Paltry numbers, still better than I thought.

[EazyRoc]

I didn't know Joe had a bronze medal. In his 5 All-Star appearances, he's averaged 18 minutes, shot .412, .348 from 3, attempted a single free throw and missed it, got 4 rebounds, has a 1:1 assist to turnover ratio, and averaged 7 points. Paltry numbers, still better than I thought.

He was being double teamed!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

SMH 3 years - great production. 6 year all star. notice how the numbers don't add up. Take the craziness out and answer this question. Which of these years is a shoe in all star year? If Joe Bagodonuts put up these numbers, is he an all star? 18.8 / 3.7 / 3.9 18.2 / 4.0 / 4.7 20.2 / 4.1 / 6.5 Also notice the 4 year numbers trend. Just say it....it was time.

I don't know. Which of THESE years were shoo-ins for an All-Star selection? 19.4 / 5.2 / 4.5 . . . Pierce ( 2012 ) 17.4 / 3.7 / 4.9 . . . Ginobli ( 2011 ) 12.4 / 6.1 / 5.5 . . . Iguodala ( 2012 ) The bottom line is that it really doesn't matter what you or I think about Joe Johnson. The coaches OBVIOUSLY thought very high of the dude for the past 6 years. They knew the type of all around game that he brought to the table. And for the record, I've said since the end of the year that someone on the Core had to go . . . either Joe Johnson or Josh Smith. But I'd never condone giving up either dude for nothing. We've played this "cap space" game before, only to have every star to superstar free agent overlook us. Then we had to pull a desperation move just to bring in a young guy like Joe to the mix. When the "big guns" bypass us next year, we'll have to do it again.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Wow, what an amount of childishness in an attempt at mock sarcasm. If you want to be real with yourself, mention that Joe averaged 10.64 points, 3.44 rebounds and 2.82 assists.........when playing in the West. Impressive no? But why mention the amount of games he played as a Sun.......but leave off the amount he played as a Hawk against the West? Curious no? Is it because the sample isn't relevant? I certainly think so.

More tantrums. First let's start off that Joe was an injury replacement selected by David Stern, not the coaches this year. So what was the goodness of all those stats huh? Coaches sure as f*** didn't care, David Stern came in and did the "I need a guy from one of my top markets" David Lee/Kris Kaman dance and made Joe an All Star.

Now North is going to pretend that All Stars are picked solely on stats rather than team records...... That's why Andre Iguodala and Luol Deng make it in over Josh Smith but, and I guess I'll have to ask this outright now, make a case for Monta Ellis then? He's gone 25.5, 5, 4 and 2 steals. 24, 5.6, 3.5 and 2 steals then 20, 6, 3.4 and 1.5 steals.......nary a selection. I'm sure If I went on basketballreference and tweezed the sliders out I could find that he's only 1 of 6 people in history to do that over a span, but why no 3 All Stars, North? Why not even 1? While we are on the subject of the Warriors, since you want to mention Dallas losing in April had influence on the selections in February, why doesn't Baron Davis make it? He was the ochestrator of the "We Believe" Warriors with great averages of 20 points, 8 assists, 4.4 rebounds and 2 steals, oh but Joe Johnson's stats conquer all this year!

OH shit! The defense excuse for an All Star game! You have to know that an argument is already getting weak when you are separating Joe on defense. Of course, last I heard SJax, Baron, Deron and Ginobili play or played defense then and were all on better teams but oh, Joe got two more points for a losing squad, his stats are clearly in a different hemisphere.

How sad is this? You were arguing for Joe getting in over Kidd for the last replacement for that All Star game.....I mention that Kidd was the last of 3 injury replacements. So to make an argument that Joe is deserving to be an All Star......let's mention that he'd make it if not 1, not 2, but 3 guys have to go down before he get's a consideration. Oh yea, that's a strong argument there. If the President, Vice President, and Secretary of State all die in a plane crash I can tell people that America voted me president in the first place. Bravo! And bringing up the team wins as a result of Joe..... not that that other All Star and All NBAer, that All Defense player and 6MoY had anyhing to do with it.

In conclusion, you'd have to be a tremendous fanboy to say that Joe Johnson would be a lock for any of his All Star selections had he remained amongst the West guard crop or even if the East boasted the same depth at his position. This should be made clear by the fact that he has only one All NBA selection to his name which flies in the face of those numerous exhibition game selections.

Like I said . . . when it comes to Joe Johnson, the goal is to discredit the dude at every turn. It doesn't matter whether he had the numbers in some years, or when he's played on good teams in other years. It doesn't matter if he even had the talent to be mentioned with the top 20 guys in the league.

The goal by you and others is to completely downplay what he was about as a player. In your eyes, he's simply not as good as some of the coaches and the commish thought he is/was. In my eyes, the dude was one of the top all-around guards in the league, and has been for many years now. That's why he gets the props that he gets from the coaches.

JJ's legacy is that of a guy who was NOT a superstar, but an All-Star caliber player who helped lead the Hawks to one of their best 5 year stretches in franchise history. It's just sad that the franchise never built a team to maximize his abilities to help get him and the team to the next level.

It's all good.

At the end of the day, I'm an UNCONDITIONAL Hawks fan, so there will be no rooting for Joe Johnson when he plays us. But when he comes back to Philips, and if I happen to be in the building for that first game he plays when he returns to ATL, I'll definitely give that dude a standing ovation when he is announced. At that point, we'll see how "classy" or "appreciative" the ATL fan base will be toward JJ.

My guess that some will boo him . . . like he CHOSE to leave the Hawks.

[MaceCase]

Like I said . . . when it comes to Joe Johnson, the goal is to discredit the dude at every turn.

Like I've pointed out, it's your goal to prop Joe up to mythical proportions and ignore the fact that he was very fortunate to be in the right place at the right time.

[Diesel]

Like I've pointed out, it's your goal to prop Joe up to mythical proportions and ignore the fact that he was very fortunate to be in the right place at the right time.

Your goal is to deny that Joe was any good. Why not just recognize what he was... Voted in 6 yrs in a row by coaches. Not by luck... Coaches know who they game plan against and who plays the game right.

[DJlaysitup]

...JJ's legacy is that of a guy who was NOT a superstar, but an All-Star caliber player who helped lead the Hawks to one of their best 5 year stretches in franchise history. It's just sad that the franchise never built a team to maximize his abilities to help get him and the team to the next level. It's all good.

Sorry North but I disagree...JJ was an excellent shooting guard that BK fell in love with as a PG. That fell apart fast and he became our "team leader" with no leadership skills. He's a really good shooting guard (not great)...but a bit slow....since he seldom takes it to the hole. The NJ-Nets will be surprised at how little he does to improve their record and playoff position....JMHO. Edited August 4, 2012 by PetroBlast

[EazyRoc]

Sorry North but I disagree...JJ was an excellent shooting guard that BK fell in love with as a PG. That fell apart fast and he became our "team leader" with no leadership skills. He's a really good shooting guard (not great)...but a bit slow....since he seldom takes it to the hole. The NJ-Nets will be surprised at how little he does to improve their record and playoff position....JMHO.

I believe Joe will be good enough to push them into the playoffs. He is a great all around player although he lost his offensive edge later on in his career in Atlanta. Playing with Deron Williams will definitely help prolong his career. I also see what Mace was saying too. He was helped by the lack of SGs in the East as far as getting All Star selections. Really, there's not a lot of SGs in the league that are really great, but Joe has stayed in the top 5 or so for the past 6 years.

[lethalweapon3]

I've always liked to refer to Joe as "2 The Hard Way".I haven't done the number-crunching, but I'd love to see the PPG and FG% numbers when you take out bunnies (dunks and layups <2 feet) and threes. He did major work to get his offense at that mid-range about as well as anybody over the years.It was always maddening to not have your 6'7" shooting guard and leading scorer driving into the lane for thunder dunks and catching oops. But the plus side was for me was his efficiency for two-point field goals at short- and mid-range, just a smooth criminal in the paint, when all the popularity-making highlights are in the dunks and threes. The man defense and the rabbit-out-of-hat threes in the clutch were just gravy, but the twos were the gristle, and on many occasions the gristle tasted like filet mignon.~lw3

Edited August 4, 2012 by lethalweapon3

[batfanjordanv]

In my opinion, he is the fourth best Hawks player in franchise history after Dominique Wilkins, Bob Pettit, and Pete Maravich. He deserves to have his number retired. He was a six-time All-Star, and he lead this team to five straight playoffs appearances.