Today's game...

[GameTime]

The problem with the small ball gimmick is in order to have a chance at a title with it, you have to have at least two elite level players to offset the deficiency and lack of balance. The Hawks have not and still don't have that. Without elite level players at other positions and/or a dominant two way center, I can't see a team with Josh as it's power forward being elite. I like him, but he's a tweener who relies heavily on athleticism and energy to be effective.

Also, I wouldn't discount the effect good big men can have. Had the Pacers been more mature, their series with Heat would have been even more competititve since they kept shooting jumpers when the Heat had mo answer for Hibbert inside. The Pacers have no elite level players, but their team is balanced and not undersized. The Celtics, with Paul Pierce playing subpar, took the Heat to seven games mainly because the Heat had no answer for an old KG inside. So unless you have elite level players, playing small ball is just a weak gimmick.

In order to compete for a title period don't you need two elite level players? Wasn't that reason we were going crazy over the potential of getting D12 and having possibly two elite level players (D12 and CP3)

The reason they kept shooting jumpers was Hibbert was not assertive enough, which has been his Achilles heel for a while.

Boston is not a good example considering KG is a PF and they were going small ball with his skinniness at C.

[MaceCase]

You are aware that Kevin Garnett is an All Star PF, correct? Why is it him at the 5 is considered traditional and not a gimmick itself against the Heat? Hibbert wasn't even nearly as effective as people seem to make him out to be against the Heat outside of a few games and people also forget that Bosh only played 15 minutes in game 1 of the series before going down to injury. He missed most of the Celtic series too. Yea, any guy would have the advantage against the likes of Turiaf, Juwan Howard and Joel Anthony, that isn't evidence though that Bosh shouldn't be starting at C though.

[AHawks89]

In my opinion, Al can not guard the 4 position as yall make it out to be. Josh is a better post player and has better post moves (when he wants to play in the paint)Al is perfect at the Center because he he is quicker than most centers, and can also step back and hit that mid range shot. Josh Smith > Horford at the 4.Josh Smith can guard and score against the 4's. I really don't see how this is even debatable when it comes to the question asking who is the better 4.

Edited October 15, 2012 by AHawks89

[Jody23]

In order to compete for a title period don't you need two elite level players? Wasn't that reason we were going crazy over the potential of getting D12 and having possibly two elite level players (D12 and CP3)

The reason they kept shooting jumpers was Hibbert was not assertive enough, which has been his Achilles heel for a while.

Boston is not a good example considering KG is a PF and they were going small ball with his skinniness at C.

Proponents of the Detroit model would of course disagree. It should be pointed out that even thouh Detroit had a 6'7 (very physical) center, they didn't play small ball as he was surrounded with Rasheed Wallace, Okur, Elden Campbell and Darko.

While KG is a power forward, he's still a seven footer with a legit post game even at his age. Fact is, is size and skill were huge for Boston in that series. Him playing playing the five is not the same as playing 6'9 F/C at center alongside a 6'8 tweener and expecting to be successful.

Regarding the Pacers, I do believe I stated their lack of maturity held them back in the Miami series. While it's true that Hibbert has struggled with being assertive, the plethora of errant jumpers taken by the team was not solely the fault of Hibbert, but more the product of a young team still learning how to win.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Proponents of the Detroit model would of course disagree. It should be pointed out that even thouh Detroit had a 6'7 (very physical) center, they didn't play small ball as he was surrounded with Rasheed Wallace, Okur, Elden Campbell and Darko. While KG is a power forward, he's still a seven footer with a legit post game even at his age. Fact is, is size and skill were huge for Boston in that series. Him playing playing the five is not the same as playing 6'9 F/C at center alongside a 6'8 tweener and expecting to be successful. Regarding the Pacers, I do believe I stated their lack of maturity held them back in the Miami series. While it's true that Hibbert has struggled with being assertive, the plethora of errant jumpers taken by the team was not solely the fault of Hibbert, but more the product of a young team still learning how to win.

Just to drive home your point about the "Detroit Model" PG - Billups . . 6 - 3 G - Hamilton . . 6 - 7 F - Prince . . 6 - 9 PF - R. Wallace . . 6 - 11 C - B. Wallace . . 6 - 8 And when your 6 - 8 guy was the toughest guy in the league and Defensive Player of the Year that season, because he was a dominant rebounder and shot blocker, it's almost like he was really a 7 footer. As for KG, we couldn't do anything with him because he would simply shoot right over the top of our players. As you correctly pointed out, his length in the post and in the midrange in that series, made him virtually un-guardable. Even on the final Boston possession in Game 6, it was KG basically shooting right over Josh from about 12 feet out to seal that game. But to me, the biggest issue with Josh and Al isn't really their size . . . it's their toughness. Add to the fact that they both basically play the same finesse style of game, it doesn't separate their skills enough as offensive players. I've always compared the Hawks with Smith and Horford, to the dilemma that Golden State had with Monta Ellis and Stephen Curry. There was no doubt that both guys were very talented. But they needed one of them to be bigger, and play differently, in order to make that combo really work. They were both 6 - 3 and smallish type PGs ( weight wise . . both were under 190 lbs ) who were quick as hell, but neither could handle a good 2 guard who was taller and bigger. And they both took the same type of shots on offense. And that's basically the situation we have with Al and Josh. They're going to be fine against most frontlines in the league. But as soon as we play a team that has a guy who can score in the post, or get physical with us in the post on defense, we'd always run into problems. In the past though, we could kind of rely on our wings and backcourt guys to limit the production of the guards and forwards of other teams, when we played dominant post players. Now, we may not have that luxury at all, because we are so small in the backcourt. And even with this trend of PFs playing C, almost all of those PFs are very skilled from 18 feet and in. They not only can score on you in the post, they can take you out to 18 feet and score on you from out there. - Garnett - Bosh - Pau Gasol - Aldridge - Duncan - Amare All of those guys are 6 - 11 or taller, according to NBA.com's measurements. They may be "listed" as PFs, but they're all legit Center length type guys. Then you add the 10 or so good "legit" centers in the league, and you kind of see what the problem is.

[Supporter]

Why isn't Al getting atleast 15 shots a game???

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Just to drive home your point about the "Detroit Model" PG - Billups . . 6 - 3 G - Hamilton . . 6 - 7 F - Prince . . 6 - 9 PF - R. Wallace . . 6 - 11 C - B. Wallace . . 6 - 8 And when your 6 - 8 guy was the toughest guy in the league and Defensive Player of the Year that season, because he was a dominant rebounder and shot blocker, it's almost like he was really a 7 footer. As for KG, we couldn't do anything with him because he would simply shoot right over the top of our players. As you correctly pointed out, his length in the post and in the midrange in that series, made him virtually un-guardable. Even on the final Boston possession in Game 6, it was KG basically shooting right over Josh from about 12 feet out to seal that game. But to me, the biggest issue with Josh and Al isn't really their size . . . it's their toughness. Add to the fact that they both basically play the same finesse style of game, it doesn't separate their skills enough as offensive players. I've always compared the Hawks with Smith and Horford, to the dilemma that Golden State had with Monta Ellis and Stephen Curry. There was no doubt that both guys were very talented. But they needed one of them to be bigger, and play differently, in order to make that combo really work. They were both 6 - 3 and smallish type PGs ( weight wise . . both were under 190 lbs ) who were quick as hell, but neither could handle a good 2 guard who was taller and bigger. And they both took the same type of shots on offense. And that's basically the situation we have with Al and Josh. They're going to be fine against most frontlines in the league. But as soon as we play a team that has a guy who can score in the post, or get physical with us in the post on defense, we'd always run into problems. In the past though, we could kind of rely on our wings and backcourt guys to limit the production of the guards and forwards of other teams, when we played dominant post players. Now, we may not have that luxury at all, because we are so small in the backcourt. And even with this trend of PFs playing C, almost all of those PFs are very skilled from 18 feet and in. They not only can score on you in the post, they can take you out to 18 feet and score on you from out there. - Garnett - Bosh - Pau Gasol - Aldridge - Duncan - Amare All of those guys are 6 - 11 or taller, according to NBA.com's measurements. They may be "listed" as PFs, but they're all legit Center length type guys. Then you add the 10 or so good "legit" centers in the league, and you kind of see what the problem is.

Once again, according to NBA.com - Garnett . . . 6 - 11 . . 253 lbs - Bosh . . . 6 - 11 . . 235 lbs - Pau Gasol . . 7 - 0 . . 250 lbs - Aldridge . . 6 - 11 . . 240 lbs - Duncan . . 6 - 11 . . 255 lbs - Amare . . 6 - 11 . . 245 lbs - Horford . . 6 - 10 . . 250 lbs - Smith . . 6 - 9 . . 225 lbs But Horford and Smith want to play the same way . . and Al doesn't get enough touches on the offensive end ( or isn't assertive enough on the offensive end ). Al and Smith are too finesse, and not enough power. In this smallish lineup, we need both of them to be more power type players, and leave the finesse to the guards and wing shooters.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Why isn't Al getting atleast 15 shots a game???

No excuse for him not getting that many shots, now that JJ is gone. But Drew is going to try to play 11 guys like he did last year, and give shots to people who really don't have any business shooting in the first place.

[AHF]

My view on Horford is that he is plenty good enough at center to be the center on a championship team. However, you need at a bare minimum one elite player to have a real shot a championship and we don't have anyone who is close to that level. If you add Durant or Lebron or someone like that to our team we would be legit contenders.The biggest problem we face is not landing a "true" center like Brook "I can't rebound" Lopez or Roy "One day I'll break 13 ppg or 9 rpg...just watch me!" HIbbert. It is landing a truly elite player to lead the team.

[Jody23]

Once again, according to NBA.com - Garnett . . . 6 - 11 . . 253 lbs - Bosh . . . 6 - 11 . . 235 lbs - Pau Gasol . . 7 - 0 . . 250 lbs - Aldridge . . 6 - 11 . . 240 lbs - Duncan . . 6 - 11 . . 255 lbs - Amare . . 6 - 11 . . 245 lbs - Horford . . 6 - 10 . . 250 lbs - Smith . . 6 - 9 . . 225 lbs But Horford and Smith want to play the same way . . and Al doesn't get enough touches on the offensive end ( or isn't assertive enough on the offensive end ). Al and Smith are too finesse, and not enough power. In this smallish lineup, we need both of them to be more power type players, and leave the finesse to the guards and wing shooters.

You make a great point about Al and Josh playing more finesse. I could be wrong, but I think one of the reasons Al wants to play more four is because it would allow him to play more physical with a size advantage. Again, I like Josh but he'll never be the low post four many clamor for him to be each and every year. He's never been that and never will be. Both guys are at best the third best player on a contending team. I'd be willing to pay the third best guy 12 million per and not 15+ per as I'm sure Josh will be asking.

[Watchman]

My view on Horford is that he is plenty good enough at center to be the center on a championship team. However, you need at a bare minimum one elite player to have a real shot a championship and we don't have anyone who is close to that level.

If you add Durant or Lebron or someone like that to our team we would be legit contenders.

The biggest problem we face is not landing a "true" center like Brook "I can't rebound" Lopez or Roy "One day I'll break 13 ppg or 9 rpg...just watch me!" HIbbert. It is landing a truly elite player to lead the team.

Not trying to make a statement on this debate, and I know it's only preseason, but Lopez is averaging 18.5 pts and 9.5 rebounds so far. If he continues to perform at that level, Brooklyn might really have themselves a team. Wallace is a good rebounder for an SF, Humphries is a good rebounder at PF. They added Blatche as well. I think the Nets will be really interesting to watch this year.

[AHF]

Not trying to make a statement on this debate, and I know it's only preseason, but Lopez is averaging 18.5 pts and 9.5 rebounds so far.

4 seasons in an his career rpg are 7.5. His career high rpg is worse than Horford's worst full season.

At 7'0'' and 260 pounds there is only one explanation for that.

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

Why isn't Al getting atleast 15 shots a game???

No excuse for him not getting that many shots, now that JJ is gone. But Drew is going to try to play 11 guys like he did last year, and give shots to people who really don't have any business shooting in the first place.

...and also it's the preseason. The goal right now isn't to win games, but for LD & DF to see what they have, what they need, and for the team to get up to speed and acclimated with each other... It's not about getting yours right now... ASA the season starts, Josh and Horf will get their shots... and so will Harris, Teague, Williams, Korver, and Morrow.

[AHawks89]

Atlanta Hawks ‏@ATLHawks

Starters for tonight's game..Korver, Tolliver, Pachulia, Harris and Teague.

[MrMeltdown]

Link to tonight's game?

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

Couldn't find one... All I am getting is a radio feed. If anyone finds one, please post. even if it's 8 bit...

[ATLHawks3]

Am I the only one getting audio?

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

Am I the only one getting audio?

Nope. Guess I'll be DLing the game tomorrow... Was REALLY wanting to see Harris. Edited October 16, 2012 by PSSSHHHRRR87

[lethalweapon3]

Josh getting rest tonight?~lw3

[lethalweapon3]

Just trolling the box scores, No Horf tonight either. A.-T.O. looked good apparently, he and Korver hit some deep shots. Lou was Lou. Jeff and Devin combined (22 points, 7 assists and 1 TO, 4 steals) would be a nice stat for one guy.Hawks had a couple chances to win late which is nice. Pacers going a whopping 31-for-35 from the line (all misses from Psycho T) made the difference.more easy threes from the opposing PG (Augustin hit his first 3 threes, after Conley went 5-for-5) who's sticking these guys?Who were the victims of Roy's 6 blocks?~lw3