Al Horford, building around, free agency, and such

[Peoriabird]

Smoove signing in Detroit and us getting...nothing? Or dealing him, say 4 years ago when Orlando blew us out, for something we could use now?

Obviously I would prefer to get value in return but I'm not a member of the "Tanker party".

Edited July 8, 2013 by Peoriabird

[NBASupes]

What do you need to put around Wade, LeBron, Duncan, Rose, Durant, Carmelo, Deron, or CP3 to make them "better?" I don't believe in 1 man shows, but if I have my choice of a cornerstone...I want a guy that creates his own shot (preferably somewhere in the paint) or creates for others.

...and I know someone's going to tell me how much they hate Carmelo and would rather have Horford. lol

Stop it, he is not an iso player. He is great at off the ball movement. You can't use Reggie Miller like you use Derrick Rose or Dwayne Wade. You need to use those players the right way. For Horf, you need to use him off of screens, PnR, transition offense, and things like that. Saying is he like a bunch of on ball superstars is just wrong. Flat out wrong. Nearly 80% of his offense last year was assisted. That should tell you what you need to know about the type of player he is.

[TheFuzz]

Man, I'm pretty disappointed with how this offseason turned out, but we're about to finally learn what Horford can do as the lead dog. That in and of itself has some value because no matter how you slice it Horford is mighty talented. Honestly, I think he's a better player than Josh or Prime Joe was.

This should be noted: why did Dwight choose Houston? Because of Harden, and because he didn't want to play in his hometown. Well, not every star doesn't want to play in Atlanta on principle. Further, I fully believe Horford can be every bit the player Harden is, not as a creator (which goes a long way, especially in the eye of the public) but Horford can be just as good as a finisher and overall. I will be disappointed if Horford doesn't hit 20/10 this year. Having said that, they're both 2nd bananas at best IMO.

Point is, I think IF we feature Horford the way Houston featured Harden players will want to play with Horford like they wanted to play with Harden.

We've got a patchwork team with some holes that will probably make the playoffs. That's not very exciting. However, ONE of Millsap or Horford will be gone by the end of next summer. Quote me on it. Ferry has shown he's willing to shake the team up and they're fairly redundant. They're also both good value. If Horford proves to be as good as I think he can be, Millsap is gone because we're a step away from the ECF. If Horford disappoints JUST A LITTLE BIT, he's gone for some damn nice assets and maybe a bit of a tank..

I gotta say, I'm not excited about Millsap. He's a good player, but not great. We're gonna be bad defensively this year. And I've lost some faith in Ferry. But I don't believe that he's "just trying to make the playoffs," and I do think he knows how to be a better team than that. It takes some time, and Ferry is gonna be wheeling and dealing the whole time. If not, I'll be disappointed. But we've still got time, and Ferry hasn't made any egregious mistakes yet.

Edited July 8, 2013 by TheFuzz

[Peoriabird]

Rome wasn't build in a day!

[Final_quest]

Rome wasn't build in a day!

Exactly. Last year we just wiped the slate clean to have a chance at Paul or Howard. We missed out on those two. Once that happened our chances of fielding a contender were limited. This is gonna take time.

[Ruckus]

Rome wasn't build in a day!

Lol. I've wanted to say this in just about every post in the past week.

[HawkItus]

Wade, Paul Pierce, Dirk, the GOAT, David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon to name a few off the top of my head.

olajuwon dirk did it without another superstar...cool..the others did it with a lot of help

[DJlaysitup]

Rome wasn't built in a day!

Of course if both D12 and CP3 DID decide to come here the headlines would be "Ferry Disproves the old axiom that Rome wasn't Built in a Day!"

My point being it generally isn't built in a day - but the Celtics and MIA basically built Rome in a day in the last decade.

They both had one top level player (Pierce-Wade) like we did (AL) and they were successful in bringing in two top level players to go with him and won...we tried basically the same thing but were unsuccessful.

Edited July 9, 2013 by DJlaysitup

[Wretch]

Rome wasn't build in a day!

I'm sorry, but was Rome built in 3 years? Relatively speaking, you've got a three year exclusive window on Al Horford. That's all you're guaranteed with him. Granted, we will have an advantage in retaining him...but still, do you think Ferry is thinking beyond that 3 year mark or do you think there's ANY pressure at all to build a team right now?

...and that's what you're not getting. Building in the NBA is open ended as long as you're expecting to keep what you have - like draft assets for example that you can expect to maintain for a minimum of 4-5 years, much longer if we extend him/match an offer. In our case, you're really looking at getting a winner together within a 3 year window. With the moves we've made, I'd say it's a TWO year window right now.

There's your deadline for Rome (Can I say jiveturkey without getting shot? lol).

Stop it, he is not an iso player. He is great at off the ball movement. You can't use Reggie Miller like you use Derrick Rose or Dwayne Wade. You need to use those players the right way. For Horf, you need to use him off of screens, PnR, transition offense, and things like that. Saying is he like a bunch of on ball superstars is just wrong. Flat out wrong. Nearly 80% of his offense last year was assisted. That should tell you what you need to know about the type of player he is.

Nope. He's not an ISO player. Though, that's not really the comparison I'm making. There are guys that make others better or simply don't "NEED" the specific compliment (Like, I would say the spurs and Duncan need Manu and Parker, but specifically players with their skillset?). There are bigs and wings that rely on a compliment...for whatever reason. Tweener forwards, combo guards, and movement/jumpshooting PF's with no off the dribble/post up game.

This is what we got with Horford. Among the FG% leaders, this dude is at the top for assisted baskets. You don't "give him" the ball or "look to go to Horford", you have get the ball "to him" and set him up. You will need something to supplement his play style. Dude is a classic compliment. And AWESOME compliment, but still...a complimentary player.

Hence, you NEED a PnR PG or you NEED a post threat he can work in tandem with. Both of those are NICE options and I'm with you there. I just think it's more complicated when you have to find a certain kind of compliment to make your star shine. In our case, we're fighting an uphill battle begging in free agency or trying to pawn off our spare parts for something of that caliber. We're really under the gun if we're talking about doing that in 3 years...two if you count the year we just pissed away.

All I'm saying is, Horford is not going to carry you.

[Wretch]

Man, I'm pretty disappointed with how this offseason turned out, but we're about to finally learn what Horford can do as the lead dog. That in and of itself has some value because no matter how you slice it Horford is mighty talented. Honestly, I think he's a better player than Josh or Prime Joe was.

This should be noted: why did Dwight choose Houston? Because of Harden, and because he didn't want to play in his hometown. Well, not every star doesn't want to play in Atlanta on principle. Further, I fully believe Horford can be every bit the player Harden is, not as a creator (which goes a long way, especially in the eye of the public) but Horford can be just as good as a finisher and overall. I will be disappointed if Horford doesn't hit 20/10 this year. Having said that, they're both 2nd bananas at best IMO.

Point is, I think IF we feature Horford the way Houston featured Harden players will want to play with Horford like they wanted to play with Harden.

We've got a patchwork team with some holes that will probably make the playoffs. That's not very exciting. However, ONE of Millsap or Horford will be gone by the end of next summer. Quote me on it. Ferry has shown he's willing to shake the team up and they're fairly redundant. They're also both good value. If Horford proves to be as good as I think he can be, Millsap is gone because we're a step away from the ECF. If Horford disappoints JUST A LITTLE BIT, he's gone for some damn nice assets and maybe a bit of a tank..

I gotta say, I'm not excited about Millsap. He's a good player, but not great. We're gonna be bad defensively this year. And I've lost some faith in Ferry. But I don't believe that he's "just trying to make the playoffs," and I do think he knows how to be a better team than that. It takes some time, and Ferry is gonna be wheeling and dealing the whole time. If not, I'll be disappointed. But we've still got time, and Ferry hasn't made any egregious mistakes yet.

I agree with almost everything you've said. Even the Horford/Millsap part.

When I say, just "trying to make the playoffs", I'm really poking fun at the people who think you can maintain a winning record every year and progress. The middle of the pack is the absolute worst place to be and the least ideal team to try and maintain. I think at least one of our owners (Gearon) and Ferry share the "Babcock" philosophy...that you can achieve a contending team without having to...for lack of a better word...tank and fool around with the Draft Lottery.

I feel your disappointment though. I'm just REALLY skeptical about a Horford centered team. I know Ferry wants no part of losing, so the path for him is TRY to win games, TRY to make the playoffs. What it will amount to if you look at the current Eastern landscape is a middle of the pack finish IMO. :(

Edited July 9, 2013 by Wretch

[Peoriabird]

I'm sorry, but was Rome built in 3 years? Relatively speaking, you've got a three year exclusive window on Al Horford. That's all you're guaranteed with him. Granted, we will have an advantage in retaining him...but still, do you think Ferry is thinking beyond that 3 year mark or do you think there's ANY pressure at all to build a team right now?

I never said that Horford was going to still be around for a championship year. Building a team with him on the roster should be a no brainer. Having said the above, Paul Pierce was in his 30's before he won his 1st championship and Boston kept him around all those years so what's the difference?

[NBASupes]

I'm sorry, but was Rome built in 3 years? Relatively speaking, you've got a three year exclusive window on Al Horford. That's all you're guaranteed with him. Granted, we will have an advantage in retaining him...but still, do you think Ferry is thinking beyond that 3 year mark or do you think there's ANY pressure at all to build a team right now?

...and that's what you're not getting. Building in the NBA is open ended as long as you're expecting to keep what you have - like draft assets for example that you can expect to maintain for a minimum of 4-5 years, much longer if we extend him/match an offer. In our case, you're really looking at getting a winner together within a 3 year window. With the moves we've made, I'd say it's a TWO year window right now.

There's your deadline for Rome (Can I say jiveturkey without getting shot? lol).

Nope. He's not an ISO player. Though, that's not really the comparison I'm making. There are guys that make others better or simply don't "NEED" the specific compliment (Like, I would say the spurs and Duncan need Manu and Parker, but specifically players with their skillset?). There are bigs and wings that rely on a compliment...for whatever reason. Tweener forwards, combo guards, and movement/jumpshooting PF's with no off the dribble/post up game.

This is what we got with Horford. Among the FG% leaders, this dude is at the top for assisted baskets. You don't "give him" the ball or "look to go to Horford", you have get the ball "to him" and set him up. You will need something to supplement his play style. Dude is a classic compliment. And AWESOME compliment, but still...a complimentary player.

Hence, you NEED a PnR PG or you NEED a post threat he can work in tandem with. Both of those are NICE options and I'm with you there. I just think it's more complicated when you have to find a certain kind of compliment to make your star shine. In our case, we're fighting an uphill battle begging in free agency or trying to pawn off our spare parts for something of that caliber. We're really under the gun if we're talking about doing that in 3 years...two if you count the year we just pissed away.

All I'm saying is, Horford is not going to carry you.

Well yeah.

[Endy9]

Sorry to be a negative Nellie, but, if we couldn't talk Howard or CP3 into coming this year with DF doing the talking, I just don't see us ever talking a big name FA into coming here. I think a lot of it has to do with how we (the fan base and ATL media) treated Joe Johnson. Very poorly IMHO.

The best we can hope for are guys who used to be great and still have about half a tank left, like when we got Moses Malone in the 80s or Walt Bellamy in the 70s.

Building thru the draft, do you really think we'd be in the top three of the East, if BK had drafted slightly differently (not saying he didn't make some hugely stupid moves)? Personally I think we might have drafted CP3 and then traded him 3 years later. It's what we seem to do.

[Guest]

Sorry to be a negative Nellie, but, if we couldn't talk Howard or CP3 into coming this year with DF doing the talking, I just don't see us ever talking a big name FA into coming here. I think a lot of it has to do with how we (the fan base and ATL media) treated Joe Johnson. Very poorly IMHO. The best we can hope for are guys who used to be great and still have about half a tank left, like when we got Moses Malone in the 80s or Walt Bellamy in the 70s. Building thru the draft, do you really think we'd be in the top three of the East, if BK had drafted slightly differently (not saying he didn't make some hugely stupid moves)? Personally I think we might have drafted CP3 and then traded him 3 years later. It's what we seem to do.

Please stop - has nothing to do with Joe. If anything they would want to come here knowing they'll get a ridiculous contract - oh wait, Bk and Sund are gone so that won't happen.Joe had to go! It was time.

[Wretch]

I never said that Horford was going to still be around for a championship year. Building a team with him on the roster should be a no brainer. Having said the above, Paul Pierce was in his 30's before he won his 1st championship and Boston kept him around all those years so what's the difference?

Well...it is Boston and they did make the ECF's prior to the Big 3 era. He stuck around for the rebuild... But we're in that dreaded gray area. Do you bank on Horford staying? Does Ferry? In this day and age of team hopping, Big 3's, and whatnots... I just can't see a guy like Ferry banking on it.

Still...what does a team look like...with no Hoford, a bunch of mid/late 1st rounders, and scraps (or scraps exchanged for scraps)? Without a ECF's birth over the course of 2 or 3 years...?

To quote Ricky Bobby:

[Wretch]

Sorry to be a negative Nellie, but, if we couldn't talk Howard or CP3 into coming this year with DF doing the talking, I just don't see us ever talking a big name FA into coming here. I think a lot of it has to do with how we (the fan base and ATL media) treated Joe Johnson. Very poorly IMHO.

The best we can hope for are guys who used to be great and still have about half a tank left, like when we got Moses Malone in the 80s or Walt Bellamy in the 70s.

Building thru the draft, do you really think we'd be in the top three of the East, if BK had drafted slightly differently (not saying he didn't make some hugely stupid moves)? Personally I think we might have drafted CP3 and then traded him 3 years later. It's what we seem to do.

I've been watching this team for many years. Do any of you guys remember Rick Fox considering us and the Lakers? He was getting the same $1 million exception from either team, PREFERRED to stay on the East Coast, and would have played a HUGE role for Lenny's Hawks. I mean...dude was exactly what we needed. We got stiffed then...long before the real stinky stigma set in. We weren't a joke back then. I mean hell...we signed FREAKING Mount Mutombo and Fox was really considering us!

We still got dissed and with the lottery years and mediocre playoff appearances...and the way people kind of just laugh us off, and the highly publicized apathetic fan base...it's a tough sell. Now, you just had a home grown talent turn us down too? It's a tough job turning that around no matter what we do....but I think coming out of this in 3 years with pretty much nothing changing is the worst thing.

If we had built right through the draft, realistically...we would have a

CP3/JJ/Chill/Smoove core...contender or not, THAT would have been fun as hell to watch. The CP3/JJ backcourt in it's prime would have been devastating. Put a different coach in there (like I wanted)...OMG. Me and AHF differ on this, but IF we could have thrown the remainder of the 2003/04 season and landed Dwight (or even Okafor)...then you're looking at CP3/JJ/Smoove/D12 or Okafor.

I had this convo before (AHF thinks it's fluff fantasy silly caveman talk...lol). Personally, I think we could have found a way to get D12...but that's the only question. Josh would have still fallen to 17 and we would have sucked because D12 (if we got him) and Josh would have been a raw, totally clueless, unskilled, and clumsy front line. They would have broken a hundred backboards, but I'm sure we would have been a lottery team...and sweet lord...how do you NOT take one of those PG's if you're in a position to take one with THAT roster. Of course JJ being the FA pickup. At a minimum though, we should have had a CP3/JJ back court.

I think things could have (and probably should have) been much different. If any of you guys were here back then, we were pretty much ALL wanting to make the picks mentioned above. I remember arguing with Walt about CP3 and his height for weeks..........

[Peoriabird]

You are making a lot of assumptions my friend and most are worse case scenario type assumptions. I know a lot of people around are angry and fed up...Quite frankly even I am annoyed by this team's fascination with guard myself but I am willing to give DF a chance. So let see how this plays out before organizing a take over.

[AHawks89]

Rome wasn't build in a day!

This reminds me of p90x

"Rome wasn't built in one day, and neither was your body!"

[Swatguy]

Of course if both D12 and CP3 DID decide to come here the headlines would be "Ferry Disproves the old axiom that Rome wasn't Built in a Day!"

My point being it generally isn't built in a day - but the Celtics and MIA basically built Rome in a day in the last decade.

They both had one top level player (Pierce-Wade) like we did (AL) and they were successful in bringing in two top level players to go with him and won...we tried basically the same thing but were unsuccessful.

We came after CP3 and Dwight with BUD. The rookie coach!! Hiring this coach did nothing to bring in Chris and/or Dwight. Larry Drew would have had a better chance. Drew did wonder's with his roster and they played hard all the way thru.

[Swatguy]

I never said that Horford was going to still be around for a championship year. Building a team with him on the roster should be a no brainer. Having said the above, Paul Pierce was in his 30's before he won his 1st championship and Boston kept him around all those years so what's the difference?

Really? the difference between Pierce and Al? One is a HOF'er. Boston did have stars around him before the two came. Only one is a go-to-guy.