Speculation: Horford for Wiggins.

[IheartVolt]

You really want to get into another Horford-Malone argument? I really don't. Let's keep this civil and be honest on Sap/Horf.

And you won't trade Derrick Rose for Ty Lawson or say he's better or as good as Rose or you will get called foolish.

Wait a second here , first of all I love Al and wish he could stay healthy..

Second..... Do you really think Al is better then The Mailman? Hang on a second.......

Lol! Oh my god that is a great one there..lmao you are killing me here

[AHF]

Guys - Please drop the Horford / Malone stuff on this thread.  I shouldn't have brought it up in this thread.  There are plenty of other threads on this topic if you want to revisit.

[IheartVolt]

Ah...will do

[Sothron]

Even if we could trade Horf for Wiggins then what the heck would do for center? Put a cardboard cut out of Deke on the floor?

[NBASupes]

You don't claim that Rose has been as valuable as Lawson or you are foolish.  

 

How can you not recognize the impact of injuries?  This is hard for me to process given that you are a sharp poster on basketball.  

 

It is the same issue.  Rose is better than Lawson when healthy but Rose is so often hurt that he hasn't been as valuable as Lawson the last few years.  

 

Until Rose and Horford get healthy, they may remain better players but the value of their play the last few seasons isn't as great simply because they do nothing for you on the bench in a suit.

 

You acknowledge this, right?

 

You and I are on the same page that Horford is more valuable than Sap when healthy.  What I can't get my head around is you completely not factoring health into a discussion of who has been the more valuable player the last few years.  It seems like a lack of objectivity on Horford not to acknowledge the impact of his injuries in some meaningful way when comparing value in recent seasons but feel free to acknowledge the issue and then provide some actual rationale.

No, I really understand your premise. I do. Lawson and Sap have been more valuable than Horf and Rose over the last three years due to injuries. 

 

Decent point right... 

 

Here is where I can't agree. Saying that either player is as valuable to my franchise as the former. That is foolish. That's my whole point on that note. You made a good assessment, but I just don't, won't and can't agree with your conclusion as it vies into an gray area. 

 

So why would you bring those players up in this conversation. The topic of convo switch to is Sap as good as Horford. Nothing on the court says Sap is anywhere near the league of Horford. NOTHING. Only thing that holds water for Sap is his clean bill of health. Horf had two freak injuries and at that, was and has been out of position since he arrived to this franchise. That has to be noted and taken with merit. 

 

To me, this is just one of those apples to oranges things that shouldn't be said more then anything. 

[High5]

Comparing win shares and other total stats to fluff up your argument is weak. Obviously a good healthy player is going to produce more than an injured player, there's no need to bring out any stats to prove that. 

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

Kevin Love would get Minne Wiggins. Horford w/ his pec injuries would maybe get us 2 1st plus a garbage contract. Horford is better on our roster than as a trade piece. But we have got to get him some better help, either at SF or C. I would love it if we could some how get Rudy Gay.

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[noble]

I think the offer for Love for Wiggins is a one off. I am pretty sure they are not really trying to move Love.

[buckeye242424]

Millsap is not better than Horford. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

It's pointless writing about. They're both all-stars, glad they're Hawks... Hard working. And the injury stuff... It happens to all athletes. Why debate who's better, they're teammates?

[AHF]

Comparing win shares and other total stats to fluff up your argument is weak. Obviously a good healthy player is going to produce more than an injured player, there's no need to bring out any stats to prove that. 

It is relevant to me to speak to degree.  When Horford was last healthy he was better than Millsap has been but by how much of a margin?  Is it enough to make up for the health issues?

 

Horford has been worth more than a healthy Mike Scott, for example, even after all the time missed.  That isn't the case with Millsap and the numbers give you a sense of the degree that missed time has influenced Horford's contributions and the degree to which his superior play when healthy closes the gap created by his health.

 

The reason I see people can have a difference of opinion in our best player going forward is where you see the injury playing out.  I'm not a doctor so I can't do much in the way of informed analysis on that pec injury.  It was a very unusual injury and then it happened again.  Does the second unusual injury to the same player in 3 seasons indicate there is an underlying issue that makes it much more likely to happen again?  I don't know.  Is it just bad luck?  I don't know.

 

supers thinks it is a freak injury that can be basically ignored for purposes of Horford's forward looking value so it is a no-brainer that Horford is more valuable.

 

Other posters think that Horford is damaged goods and that his health can no longer be relied upon so they discount his value and equate it with Sap or think Sap has the higher value.

 

I shrug my shoulders and say that his health is going to be the primary driver in sorting out value going forward and acknowledge that I don't have the medical expertise to give an informed opinion.  I can't kill either side of that divide as far as assessing Horford's forward looking value.

[AHF]

I think the offer for Love for Wiggins is a one off. I am pretty sure they are not really trying to move Love.

 

Why do you think that?  Love has informed them that he will be opting out after this season and not resigning with them.  They have been involved in trade conversation about Love with multiple teams, including Golden State.  How does that translate into a one-off situation for Love and Minnesota?  I think it is much more likely that Minnesota deals Love than that they hold him.

[hawkman]

Even if we could trade Horf for Wiggins then what the heck would do for center? Put a cardboard cut out of Deke on the floor?

It'll be more effective on the court than capspace.

[noble]

Why do you think that?  Love has informed them that he will be opting out after this season and not resigning with them.  They have been involved in trade conversation about Love with multiple teams, including Golden State.  How does that translate into a one-off situation for Love and Minnesota?  I think it is much more likely that Minnesota deals Love than that they hold him.

Well because though it all they have been pretty meh about trading him. They haven't really jumped at any chance until they saw Wiggins being offered. The rest was like, yea we will consider it.

[Diesel]

Cavs about to Sign Wiggins.  That means all trades are off.

[DatWerkk]

Cavs about to Sign Wiggins.  That means all trades are off.

...for 30 days.