Not being overly cocky but...

[JTB]

I get the team is young and will go through some growing pains however for a young team I believe the defense is going to be pretty good and will click before the offense does. And I feel that way no matter how you project what the starting lineup will be:

1) Dennis, Bembry, Prince, Collins, Stone

2) Dennis, Bembry, Prince, Collins, Dedmon or Reed

3) Dennis, Baze, Prince, Collins, Stone

add in a possibility of kcp or Noel plus other lineups of individuals we know has a possibility of starting and I'm saying for a young team I believe the defense will click and actually be pretty good no matter how you arrange the starting lineup.

now I'm not talking top 10 good but I could see these young passionate players being the 15th-17th good which I would count as plus looking at how young they are with little to no real experience.

im not guaranteeing it just a good gut feeling defense will be learned far quicker than Buds offense. And defensive trust will be established way before the trust will be offensively.

[Peoriabird]

I'm with you...the team will be far more competitive than the gloom and doom crowd predicts...For the life of me I can't understand why poster think that Millsa p is so far superior to John Collins.  What does he do better other than he is a little stronger than John now. But in 2 years, he will have far superior skill to what Millsap offered.

[PacMan123]

30 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

I'm with you...the team will be far more competitive than the gloom and doom crowd predicts...For the life of me I can't understand why poster think that Millsa p is so far superior to John Collins.  What does he do better other than he is a little stronger than John now. But in 2 years, he will have far superior skill to what Millsap offered.

Sap has been a top 15 player in the league for last 2+ years and Collins is an unknown...as any rookie is. You are banking on potential vs proven commodity.

I am not saying Collins can't be special in the future or Sap's play won't decline as he gets older, but as of now, "Millsap is far superior to John Collins" in the present

[Peoriabird]

12 minutes ago, PacMan123 said:

Sap has been a top 15 player in the league for last 2+ years and Collins is an unknown...as any rookie is. You are banking on potential vs proven commodity.

I am not saying Collins can't be special in the future or Sap's play won't decline as he gets older, but as of now, "Millsap is far superior to John Collins" in the present

1st of all, Sap's skills are already in decline..use any metric you want and they will point to a decline last year. Secondly, what is Sap better at? Defense? Maybe.certainly Sap has better hands but Collins is proving to be no slouch. Shooting? Doesn't look like it. Rebounding? Has Sap ever average double digit rebounds? Ball handling? Collins rarely turns the ball over.  To me Collin definitely looks like his ceiling is much higher than Sap's ceiling and it doesn't appear that he will take long to get there.

[PacMan123]

Are we talking about ceiling between a 19y/o rookie and 32y/o vet or talking about right now?

If you really are comparing 3 summer league games as a way to justify Collins being more productive this upcoming season than Sap would have been, then you are more bold than I am. He could turn out and be a surprise ROY, but until that happens, going off summer league games vs productivity I have seen with Sap even at this age, I will take Sap this season as a better player.....Again for this season!

[h4wkfan]

31 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

1st of all, Sap's skills are already in decline..use any metric you want and they will point to a decline last year. Secondly, what is Sap better at? Defense? Maybe.certainly Sap has better hands but Collins is proving to be no slouch. Shooting? Doesn't look like it. Rebounding? Has Sap ever average double digit rebounds? Ball handling? Collins rarely turns the ball over.  To me Collin definitely looks like his ceiling is much higher than Sap's ceiling and it doesn't appear that he will take long to get there.

That is a lot of koolaid you are sipping. I'd urge you to pump your brakes on year 1 of Collins vs a proven all star is sap. 

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, PacMan123 said:

Are we talking about ceiling between a 19y/o rookie and 32y/o vet or talking about right now?

If you really are comparing 3 summer league games as a way to justify Collins being more productive this upcoming season than Sap would have been, then you are more bold than I am. He could turn out and be a surprise ROY, but until that happens, going off summer league games vs productivity I have seen with Sap even at this age, I will take Sap this season as a better player.....Again for this season!

Yeah - I don't think this position is remotely controversial.  The number of rookies who enter the league like Tim Duncan are very small.  Even most stars take some time to mature into big impact players.

[Vol4ever]

1 hour ago, JTB said:

I get the team is young and will go through some growing pains however for a young team I believe the defense is going to be pretty good and will click before the offense does. And I feel that way no matter how you project what the starting lineup will be:

1) Dennis, Bembry, Prince, Collins, Stone

2) Dennis, Bembry, Prince, Collins, Dedmon or Reed

3) Dennis, Baze, Prince, Collins, Stone

add in a possibility of kcp or Noel plus other lineups of individuals we know has a possibility of starting and I'm saying for a young team I believe the defense will click and actually be pretty good no matter how you arrange the starting lineup.

now I'm not talking top 10 good but I could see these young passionate players being the 15th-17th good which I would count as plus looking at how young they are with little to no real experience.

im not guaranteeing it just a good gut feeling defense will be learned far quicker than Buds offense. And defensive trust will be established way before the trust will be offensively.

I have to disagree with you.  We will be a really bad team this year.  Its just a reality because we have young talented players that will be competing with NBA vets.  The summer league is fun but nothing more than a street ball contest.

 

Reality will sit in November 2017.  

[bleachkit]

How can T. Prince be a 3 and D if he cant shoot? 

[Thomas]

4 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

How can T. Prince be a 3 and D if he cant shoot? 

Incredibly small sample here but shows he can develop that three pointer. Just keep working. 50% against the Pelicans.

http://www.nba.com/games/20170709/ATLNOP#/boxscore

[Peoriabird]

Glad you made this thread @JTB.  It will be fun tho  vome back to this thread to see who the true glass half empty posters are.

[PacMan123]

6 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Glad you made this thread @JTB.  It will be fun tho  vome back to this thread to see who the true glass half empty posters are.

It has nothing to do with glass half empty....

You are just comparing apples and oranges. It's not logical to say someone is a better player because of potential vs actual productivity. Let's just be consistent with our evaluation, but overall we all want same thing-Collins to be a stud

Go Hawks!

[noble]

 

[JTB]

10 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Glad you made this thread @JTB.  It will be fun tho  vome back to this thread to see who the true glass half empty posters are.

Just expressing my thoughts! of course this is speculation not based on summer league just based on the fact than i believe Dennis and Prince are good defenders more so that what this board believes. You add in KCP or even Baze to the starting lineup I think the perimeter is set. We get Reed or Dedmon thats even better. Also stone looks like he could be promising but Im solely basing stone specifically on summer league play.

Edited July 11, 2017 by JTB

[capstone21]

Is Dennis a good defender?  He definitely has the capability to be one but I haven't seen him play a whole lot of solid d this past season

[Lurker]

Taurean is fine. Let me repeat what I said, he is not a guy in which you can rely on to create shots or finish at the rim when he sees two at the rim. If nothing is done, sadly he's a 42%/35%/78% guy though that does well in transition and is a streaky 3 shooter. Millsap hand feeding him really helped him with his shot average after Millsap came back and he was not facing LeBron and he's gone.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Lurker

[Diesel]

I think some of you will have a rough time embracing the tank.  We're tanking.  Most of the games we play this season won't be competitive at all.   Most of us will grow weary of the lack of teamwork and guys trying to individually shine.   Coach Bud is going to have a rough time.   

That's not to say that we don't have talented players.  It is just to say that Young players don't win in this league.  NOTHING.

 

[capstone21]

27 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I think some of you will have a rough time embracing the tank.  We're tanking.  Most of the games we play this season won't be competitive at all.   Most of us will grow weary of the lack of teamwork and guys trying to individually shine.   Coach Bud is going to have a rough time.   

That's not to say that we don't have talented players.  It is just to say that Young players don't win in this league.  NOTHING.

 

It is a def tank but I think the mentality is not to role over and play dead.  We will fight for 48 minutes but our talent/experience won't be enough.  So I think that is the 'Competitive' aspect of what the GM is saying

[Diesel]

7 minutes ago, capstone21 said:

It is a def tank but I think the mentality is not to role over and play dead.  We will fight for 48 minutes but our talent/experience won't be enough.  So I think that is the 'Competitive' aspect of what the GM is saying

Honestly...  Teams that tank don't roll over and play dead.  They just don't win.

Hell, People talk bad about the 76ers.. but when Embiid played, those guys were fun to watch.  Covington didn't roll over.  Neither did Embiid.  It's just that Young teams can't win. 

KG took a tanking Minnesota and had them up for every game... but young teams just don't win. 

So when we show up, it's not that we're rolling over... It's just like a Law in Physics...  Can't win.

 

[Thomas]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Honestly...  Teams that tank don't roll over and play dead.  They just don't win.

Hell, People talk bad about the 76ers.. but when Embiid played, those guys were fun to watch.  Covington didn't roll over.  Neither did Embiid.  It's just that Young teams can't win. 

KG took a tanking Minnesota and had them up for every game... but young teams just don't win. 

So when we show up, it's not that we're rolling over... It's just like a Law in Physics...  Can't win.

 

Wish I could argue this point because we're talking about our Hawks but its too steeped in fact. Think we'll be fun to watch many nights but the wins are definitely down the road.