Hawks fans making it through a TANK...

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Agree with the overall post that we lost 3 useful players and should be worse because of it but this bolded part just made me laugh.  I am 100% sure that is the first time I have ever seen that used to describe someone.

Yeah.. But here's the significance..(I was tongue and cheek until this)...  Kyrie Irving was not even nominated for MVP.  THJr was nominated and got votes for MIP... and actually had more votes than about 6 other guys (including Dennis).   So I figure it has some significant. 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 7/24/2017 at 2:01 PM, hazer said:

Very cool, congrats! I was a college pitcher, on scholarship, so I understand. I hate losing too, but especially treadmill losing in the early rounds of the playoffs. To me, that's the ultimate loser mentality. I want to win so bad that I understand and accept this strategic move to actually get us into a better position to win deeper into the postseason than just treadmill losing early. And I don't see anyone around here saying they "accept" losing and that it's fun. It's a "and 1-step-back, 2-steps forward" scenario. The fun part being new, young, energetic, exciting, promising players developing into something better right before our eyes. The exciting part is new hope of escaping treadmill early exits me making it further than we have been.

Minnesota is probably the best lesson about losing.  They've been in the abyss for 13 years.  It took 11 years to finally get a guy who may be a transcendent talent ( KAT ),   And they traded their best player ( Love ) to get a younger guy who may also be a good talent ( just not as great as people thought he'd be ).

At the end of the day, even that young team had to go out and bring in some high quality vets ( Butler, Teague, Gibson ), because it takes young guys YEARS to learn how to win in this league.

The best scenario for the Hawks was to probably keep a decent stable of vets around Dennis, and see if he develops into that star ( because we've seen glimpses of it in multiple playoff games the past 2 seasons. )

Now, we're doing almost a complete reset with no quality vets around to help mold the young team.

It is what it is though.

 

[Vol4ever]

6 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Minnesota is probably the best lesson about losing.  They've been in the abyss for 13 years.  It took 11 years to finally get a guy who may be a transcendent talent ( KAT ),   And they traded their best player ( Love ) to get a younger guy who may also be a good talent ( just not as great as people thought he'd be ).

At the end of the day, even that young team had to go out and bring in some high quality vets ( Butler, Teague, Gibson ), because it takes young guys YEARS to learn how to win in this league.

The best scenario for the Hawks was to probably keep a decent stable of vets around Dennis, and see if he develops into that star ( because we've seen glimpses of it in multiple playoff games the past 2 seasons. )

Now, we're doing almost a complete reset with no quality vets around to help mold the young team.

It is what it is though.

 

This is dead on^^^^^^^.   L99k at the sixers and others that took this path.  Even with all the high draft picks they have gone years and years.  Cleveland is another example and until Lebron showed up they were stuck in tranquility.  The Hawks will down for years unless something dramatically changes.  We have zero to offer in trade other than Dennis and he wouldnt fetch that big of a deal.    

[Sothron]

You guys do know the TWolves would have made the playoffs the last several years if they were in the East, right? Their lottery situation gave them both talent they drafted and the draft picks necessary to MAKE the big trade for an established star player.

[KB21]

7 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Minnesota is probably the best lesson about losing.  They've been in the abyss for 13 years.  It took 11 years to finally get a guy who may be a transcendent talent ( KAT ),   And they traded their best player ( Love ) to get a younger guy who may also be a good talent ( just not as great as people thought he'd be ).

At the end of the day, even that young team had to go out and bring in some high quality vets ( Butler, Teague, Gibson ), because it takes young guys YEARS to learn how to win in this league.

The best scenario for the Hawks was to probably keep a decent stable of vets around Dennis, and see if he develops into that star ( because we've seen glimpses of it in multiple playoff games the past 2 seasons. )

Now, we're doing almost a complete reset with no quality vets around to help mold the young team.

It is what it is though.

 

Yes, and even with proper development of the young players on the team, at some point, this team will have to add veteran leaders that can teach these young pups how to win in this league.  This is why I feel player development is better when it is done in a winning environment rather than one where the culture is one of losing.  It's also why this isn't going to be the quick turnaround that many believe it will be,.  Even if they hit on their lottery picks, they are at the very least going to be lottery bound for the next 3-4 years before the team is ready to compete for a playoff spot. 

Even the model organization for building through the draft that everyone wants to use, the Golden State Warriors, weren't a playoff team until they brought on veterans Andrew Bogut and Andre Iguodala to teach the young stars they had drafted how to win. 

Oklahoma City was a team that was built almost completely through the draft, and they still sucked for three years before making a breakthrough and playing for a championship in year 5. 

However, for every OKC and GS, you have a Sacramento Kings and Minnesota Timberwolves.  For every LA Clippers type of rebuild, which wasn't done completely through the draft, you have a Philadelphia 76ers.  Right now, Orlando, Phoenix, and LA are teams that are lottery bound teams who really don't have any hope of getting out of the lottery in the next few years without adding their "stars" through free agency.

I think too often, people just assume that rebuilding is going to yield a better product than what you had, and that's not the case.  More often than not, rebuilds are long, painful processes.  Travis Schlenk can talk all he wants about avoiding being down for 2-3 years like most teams, but it's one thing to say that and another thing to be able to bring on board the veterans to prevent that from happening.

Edited July 26, 2017 by KB21

[KB21]

In fact, I would add that if the Hawks do this the right way and don't panic after year 2 of the rebuild and overpay someone, this will take at least 3-4 years to get the type of talent/players on this team that you want.  By year 3-4, they will have to add their Iguodala/Bogut.

[hazer]

20 minutes ago, KB21 said:

In fact, I would add that if the Hawks do this the right way and don't panic after year 2 of the rebuild and overpay someone, this will take at least 3-4 years to get the type of talent/players on this team that you want.  By year 3-4, they will have to add their Iguodala/Bogut.

Totally agree, this is a 3-5 year process. Not a 2, not a 10.

[High5]

3 years to get back to the playoffs with much more upside than we had before would be great and well worth the investment. It might not even take that long in the East. The Bucks went from 15 wins to 41 a few years ago without an All Star. 

[Sothron]

56 minutes ago, hazer said:

Totally agree, this is a 3-5 year process. Not a 2, not a 10.

Hopefully this time around with a transformational talent or two with a real chance of contending.

[hazer]

20 minutes ago, High5 said:

3 years to get back to the playoffs with much more upside than we had before would be great and well worth the investment. It might not even take that long in the East. The Bucks went from 15 wins to 41 a few years ago without an All Star. 

Maybe only 2 years to get back to playoffs in a weak East. And if Colonel Schlenk plays his draft cards right, and if Hawks U is back in full force with Bud now only focusing on coaching (plus the hiring of Jent and Longstaff), hopefully the Hawks can return to the ECFs in as little as 4 years.

Here's an eye-opening comment from wmcgee_va over on Peachtree Hoops that demonstrates the "lottery treadmill for a decade" nonsense is just that:

"Since the Hawks made the playoffs 3 years after their 13 win season...(by the way it took the Cavaliers 4 years to go from <20w to playoffs)

The Heat made it the next year after a 15 win season. 
The Bucks made it the next year after a 15 win season. 
The Seattle Super Thunder made it 2 years after 20 win season; 
The Charlotte Horncats did it 2 years after a 7 win season
The Clippers made it 3 years after 19 win season
The New Brooksey Nets did it 3 years after a 12 win season

Posted by wmcgee_va on Jul 21, 2017 | 10:52 PM"

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, High5 said:

3 years to get back to the playoffs with much more upside than we had before would be great and well worth the investment. It might not even take that long in the East. The Bucks went from 15 wins to 41 a few years ago without an All Star. 

[hazer]

23 minutes ago, hazer said:

Maybe only 2 years to get back to playoffs in a weak East. And if Colonel Schlenk plays his draft cards right, and if Hawks U is back in full force with Bud now only focusing on coaching (plus the hiring of Jent and Longstaff), hopefully the Hawks can return to the ECFs in as little as 4 years.

Here's an eye-opening comment from wmcgee_va over on Peachtree Hoops that demonstrates the "lottery treadmill for a decade" nonsense is just that:

"Since the Hawks made the playoffs 3 years after their 13 win season...(by the way it took the Cavaliers 4 years to go from <20w to playoffs)

The Heat made it the next year after a 15 win season. 
The Bucks made it the next year after a 15 win season. 
The Seattle Super Thunder made it 2 years after 20 win season; 
The Charlotte Horncats did it 2 years after a 7 win season
The Clippers made it 3 years after 19 win season
The New Brooksey Nets did it 3 years after a 12 win season

Posted by wmcgee_va on Jul 21, 2017 | 10:52 PM"

All of those bounce-backs in 4-years-or-less were in a stronger East. The average return to playoffs for those 20-and-under win teams was 2 years.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 7/26/2017 at 7:49 AM, Sothron said:

You guys do know the TWolves would have made the playoffs the last several years if they were in the East, right? Their lottery situation gave them both talent they drafted and the draft picks necessary to MAKE the big trade for an established star player.

And my Cincinnati Bengals could've made it to the Super Bowl, had they'd not played in the AFC.   I can't live in an alternate reality.

So is that the plan?  Go through a couple of resets of seeing who can be the young star we can build around, but lose for an entire decade trying to do so?

LOL . . and that STILL might not be enough to get Minnesota into the playoffs this year, with how stacked the Western Conference is.

[hazer]

13 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

So is that the plan?  Go through a couple of resets of seeing who can be the young star we can build around, but lose for an entire decade trying to do so?

Decade?

 

"Since the Hawks made the playoffs 3 years after their 13 win season...

The Heat made it the next year after a 15 win season. 
The Bucks made it the next year after a 15 win season. 
The Seattle Super Thunder made it 2 years after 20 win season; 
The Charlotte Horncats did it 2 years after a 7 win season
The Clippers made it 3 years after 19 win season
The New Brooksey Nets did it 3 years after a 12 win season

Posted by wmcgee_va on Jul 21, 2017 | 10:52 PM"

[BrazilianHawk]

On 26/07/2017 at 0:56 PM, hazer said:

All of those bounce-backs in 4-years-or-less were in a stronger East. The average return to playoffs for those 20-and-under win teams was 2 years.

And how many of those actually won a championship?

The Heat, because of collusion. Not happening with the Hawks, though. 5+ years until we get to .500.

Book it.

 

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

Every time I think of the Hawks going through a tank, this is who I think of... Guys like this will be hyped more than they should... *cough* Plumlee *cough* Dedmon *cough* *cough*

[hazer]

1 hour ago, BrazilianHawk said:

And how many of those actually won a championship?

The Heat, because of collusion. Not happening with the Hawks, though. 5+ years until we get to .500.

Book it.

 

Wasn't talking about a championship, just refuting the "years in the lottery treadmill" nonsense. Over 5 years to win 41 games in a season??? Only took them 3 years after the 13-win season, with an inferior coach. Care to place a wager on that?

[Randy]

The thing about tanking is that losing makes you get amnesia.  You tank to get off of the treadmill and get good enough to win a championship, but after losing for long enough, you forget why you tanked and become grateful if the team just gets back into the playoffs and onto the treadmill again. 

Edited July 27, 2017 by Randy
clarity

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, Randy said:

The thing about tanking is that losing makes you get amnesia.  You tank to get off of the treadmill and get good enough to win a championship, but after losing for long enough, you forget why you tanked and become grateful if the team just gets back into the playoffs and onto the treadmill again. 

When players that we partly develop start walking away or when we pay extra for mediocre players we developed, we'll be begging for playoffs. 

[Peoriabird]

Y'all just continue to amaze me with your conversations about how long it will take to just make the playoffs again. The prediction of 5 years plus assumes we have abdolutely nothing on the roster now. Maybe y'all thought and still think that Millsap, Howard and Hardaway were our irreplaceable big 3 lol.  Makes you wonder how Utah and Houston manage to make the playoffs after their stars left.