Lil Goldie is just like Teague but with far more aggression

[StephenHawking]

vor 4 Minuten, AHF sagte:

It is tough to see the negative comparison on assists to Joe with arguments about more touches leading to better number when Joe had more touches, measuring based on team numbers when Dennis' team assist numbers are much better and measuring based on individual numbers when raw numbers, rates and ratios all point to Dennis between the two.  I guess we are now discarding all those factors and focusing on shot rate where Dennis does take 18.9% of the team's shots in his age 24 season compared to Joe's 21.5% of team shots his age 24 season or Joe's 22.8% of team shots his first healthy All-Star season or JJ's 22.0% the following season.

I also love how he figured out that somehow higher usage leads to less turnovers. 

If anything better ball handling skills lead to less turnovers. 

Give Dwight the ball on 29.5% usage and he'd average a triple double with turnovers included

[TheNorthCydeRises]

12 hours ago, Diesel said:

That's true.   Joe's high A/TO was 2.32 and Dennis now is at 2.68.   However, in that year, Joe's Usage rate was 26.6 while Dennis is 29.5.  Somewhere in there is a correlation that says when you handle the ball more and shoot more shots, you will have more assist and an equal or lesser number of turnovers. .. And I think that's what we see with Dennis.   He's handling the ball more.  So he's more IsoSchro than IsoJoe was IsoJoe.   

LOL . . he's the PG in a pick and roll offense. Of course he's going to handle the ball more.

 

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

Joe's whole team was Isoball.   I mean, Josh Smith.   Etc.  However  it's Staggering.

Joe was our Startng SG.  He put up 18 FGs per game over 39.5 mpg. 

Schro is our PG.  He's putting up 17.4 FGs per game over 32.3 mpg. 

 

Now, if you're calling Joe the ISO King..  If you just looked at the simple math... Joe put up 0.46 shots per minutes to Dennis' 0.54 shots per minute.  That's a SG vs. a PG. 

Let's put some more reference to it:

• Dennis = 0.54 fg/min
• Harden = 0.59 fg/min
• Westbrook = 0.58 fg/min
• Curry = 0.54 fg/min
• Wall - 0.46 fg/min
• Conley = 0.45 fg/min
• Parker (@ 24y.o.) = 0.44 fg/min

Do you think that Dennis needs to be putting up shots at the rate of Steph Curry.  In the vicinity of Westbrook and Hardin?  I'm on the record of saying that the only PGs who should be able to put up mefirst stats are Curry and Wall.   Mainly because their assists and FG% and team will make up the difference.   However, with none of that going for him, Dennis is outpacing Steph. Just for grins, I look at Lebron James.   I found his highest FGA output.. in the year of his highest FGA output, he was putting up 0.54 fg,minutes. That year, he played beside Larry Hughes and Ronald Murry as his 2nd and 3rd highest FGA and neither of them played longer than 32 games. 

So Dennis is shooting more shots per minute than even Lebron did when he had nothing.   That's a PG vs. the face of the League. 

ISOSchro is alive and well. 

I just love the fact that you're using stats to build arguments now, whether I agree with them or not.  This is great.

One thing about that list though.  All of those guys play alongside a guy who can not only create their own shots, but can get 20 points at the drop of a hat.  Dennis doesn't have that.

The other thing is that if you're truly trying to see how many shots a guy is taking, you have to factor in the Free Throw Attempts as well.  While that technically isn't a shot ( only because they missed a shot when fouled . . or drew a foul while the team is in the bonus ), it is a possession in which he could've been shooting the ball.

Kind of strange you give a pass for Wall for putting up "me first" stats, when he's notoriously one of the worst shooting PGs in the league.

 

Here are all of Dennis' shots last night, by the way.  He uncharacteristically missed almost all of his shots at the rim.  Also notice that when he goes out of the game, the lead mysteriously increases.

flag=3&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&PlayerID=203471&TeamID=1610612737&GameID=0021700522&ContextMeasure=FGA&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&RangeType=0&StartPeriod=1&EndPeriod=10&StartRange=0&EndRange=28800&section=game&sct=plot

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, StephenHawking said:

I also love how he figured out that somehow higher usage leads to less turnovers. 

If anything better ball handling skills lead to less turnovers. 

Give Dwight the ball on 29.5% usage and he'd average a triple double with turnovers included

Speaking of Mr. Howard . . . 

 

Usage rate last night:   25.4%

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, AHF said:

Schro is far from perfect but his shot rate hasn't changed much from when Bud benched Teague and then shipped him out to start Dennis.  I tend to think he made that choice deliberately.

Bud had to keep one of them.  He chose the cheaper, younger one.  So yes, it was deliberate. It was Bud's fault that everybody's contract came up at the same time in the first place. 

[StephenHawking]

vor 44 Minuten, TheNorthCydeRises sagte:

Speaking of Mr. Howard . . . 

 

Usage rate last night:   25.4%

I know about last nights performance. Nevertheless his career over the last few years suggested that he's turnover prone.

I used him for example  because Diesel likes him and can easily refer to his game. 

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, AHF said:

It is tough to see the negative comparison on assists to Joe with arguments about more touches leading to better number when Joe had more touches, measuring based on team numbers when Dennis' team assist numbers are much better and measuring based on individual numbers when raw numbers, rates and ratios all point to Dennis between the two.  I guess we are now discarding all those factors and focusing on shot rate where Dennis does take 18.9% of the team's shots in his age 24 season compared to Joe's 21.5% of team shots his age 24 season or Joe's 22.8% of team shots his first healthy All-Star season or JJ's 22.0% the following season.

Since you brought Joe at 24..

Joe at 24 had rookies Josh Childress, Josh Smith, Tony Delk and Al Harrington on the team. 

At 24..  Joe's USG% - 24.6%  

At 24..  Dennis USG% - 29.4%

Whoose dominating the offense more? It occurs to me that you want to pigeon ISOJOE as ballhoggery when ISOSCHRO is more prolific.

I've given the articles that clearly states that the stats ASS% and others will be elevated just by taking more shots.   And SCHRO takes more shots.  I suggest you look up the articles that talks about How Westbrook pads his advanced stats simply by shooting the ball more. 

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, StephenHawking said:

You lack profound knowledge if you consider Wall a worthy mefirst option over Dennis. 

Wall is barely 0.5% true shooting. 

Moreover your whole argument is flawed and a wild attempt in destroying Dennis rep'. 

The nonsensical comparison of nba superstars with Dennis will leave Dennis on the short end anyway. 

NOBODY says Dennis is as good as Harden Curry Lebron etc. So tell me what's the point in comparing them? 

If he'd be as efficient as those guys we would talk about a top 5 player in the game. 

He is not and we all know that. 

STILL he's a good player. 

 

 

I said that Wall can do it because most of the time, Wall is putting up more than 8.5 APG.  Wall is definitely not the guy that I want shooting the three point shot, but he is the guy that I would love to drive and kick.   TS% doesn't care about the drive and kick.. and measures a bad three point shooter but that doesn't measure his ability as a PG.  

Point is... Dennis is shooting at about the same FG/min as Curry and a little less than Harden and Westbrook.   My question is does his ability suggest that he should be shooting that much? I simply pointed out how selfish his play is.   The real comparison started with Joe Johnson.  Seeing that he was seen as a ball hogging Iso player.   Come to find out that Joe's FG/Min in the year of his highest FGAs is significantly lower than Schros.  Joe was a SG and Schro a PG.   You would have expected Joe to catch and shoot like Korver and you would expect Dennis to distribute.  But the one that they called ISoJoe Shot the ball less than dennis is shooting now and nobody cares to address that.  

[StephenHawking]

vor 5 Minuten, Diesel sagte:

Since you brought Joe at 24..

Joe at 24 had rookies Josh Childress, Josh Smith, Tony Delk and Al Harrington on the team. 

At 24..  Joe's USG% - 24.6%  

At 24..  Dennis USG% - 29.4%

Whoose dominating the offense more? It occurs to me that you want to pigeon ISOJOE as ballhoggery when ISOSCHRO is more prolific.

I've given the articles that clearly states that the stats ASS% and others will be elevated just by taking more shots.   And SCHRO takes more shots.  I suggest you look up the articles that talks about How Westbrook pads his advanced stats simply by shooting the ball more. 

But isn't he worsen his advanced shooting metrics by taking more shots (probably bad ones)?

I'm not sure how that works out in this theory. 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

The other thing is that if you're truly trying to see how many shots a guy is taking, you have to factor in the Free Throw Attempts as well.  While that technically isn't a shot ( only because they missed a shot when fouled . . or drew a foul while the team is in the bonus ), it is a possession in which he could've been shooting the ball.

 

The rate that Dennis shoots, we don't know if we have a guy who could average 20.   I mean, Schro's numbers were the same last year.  Last year, he played beside Paul Millsap (a walking double double). But it never effected Schro's shooting rate. 

 

[StephenHawking]

I said that Wall can do it because most of the time, Wall is putting up more than 8.5 APG.  Wall is definitely not the guy that I want shooting the three point shot, but he is the guy that I would love to drive and kick.   TS% doesn't care about the drive and kick.. and measures a bad three point shooter but that doesn't measure his ability as a PG.  

Point is... Dennis is shooting at about the same FG/min as Curry and a little less than Harden and Westbrook.   My question is does his ability suggest that he should be shooting that much? I simply pointed out how selfish his play is.   The real comparison started with Joe Johnson.  Seeing that he was seen as a ball hogging Iso player.   Come to find out that Joe's FG/Min in the year of his highest FGAs is significantly lower than Schros.  Joe was a SG and Schro a PG.   You would have expected Joe to catch and shoot like Korver and you would expect Dennis to distribute.  But the one that they called ISoJoe Shot the ball less than dennis is shooting now and nobody cares to address that.  

I can't quite follow the argument of why Walls assist-numbers somehow enable him to be mefirst. 

Good shooting metrics and ball handling should make you a me-first guy. Best example: Kyrie. 

For now Schröder is the Hawks best combo of ballhandling skills and shooting. Thats why he takes the majority of shots. 

If Prince is able to continue with outputs like yesterday while being controlled handling the ball than he's on the verge of becoming the first option. 

You have to create your own shot on a constant basis to be a first option. Simple as that. 

[AHF]

45 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Since you brought Joe at 24..

Joe at 24 had rookies Josh Childress, Josh Smith, Tony Delk and Al Harrington on the team. 

At 24..  Joe's USG% - 24.6%  

At 24..  Dennis USG% - 29.4%

Whoose dominating the offense more? It occurs to me that you want to pigeon ISOJOE as ballhoggery when ISOSCHRO is more prolific.

I've given the articles that clearly states that the stats ASS% and others will be elevated just by taking more shots.   And SCHRO takes more shots.  I suggest you look up the articles that talks about How Westbrook pads his advanced stats simply by shooting the ball more. 

Taking shots doesn't get you a higher  ast% - only assisting does that.  There can be correlation but just chucking shots does nothing for ast%.

Usage is basically made up of 3 numbers:  assists, shots and turnovers.

So Dennis has a higher number of assists and a better A/to ratio.  

Joe took a higher % of the team's shots.

Joe had more turnovers.

[marco102]

54 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I said that Wall can do it because most of the time, Wall is putting up more than 8.5 APG.  Wall is definitely not the guy that I want shooting the three point shot, but he is the guy that I would love to drive and kick.   TS% doesn't care about the drive and kick.. and measures a bad three point shooter but that doesn't measure his ability as a PG.  

Point is... Dennis is shooting at about the same FG/min as Curry and a little less than Harden and Westbrook.   My question is does his ability suggest that he should be shooting that much? I simply pointed out how selfish his play is.   The real comparison started with Joe Johnson.  Seeing that he was seen as a ball hogging Iso player.   Come to find out that Joe's FG/Min in the year of his highest FGAs is significantly lower than Schros.  Joe was a SG and Schro a PG.   You would have expected Joe to catch and shoot like Korver and you would expect Dennis to distribute.  But the one that they called ISoJoe Shot the ball less than dennis is shooting now and nobody cares to address that.  

Man, stop this foolishness.   If Dennis was shooting the same amount of threes as Curry, I would have a problem with that.  Most of Dennis' shots are at the rim which by definition are high quality shots.  If he was jacking up threes left and right with his below average percentage, I'd def have a problem with it.  Anyway, we get it, you don't like Dennis, but Bud does so it's a moot point to keep acting like he's some guy that should be playing in China because he's not. 

Also, Bud would bench Dennis whenever he damn well pleases and he has this season.  Dennis is playing how Bud wants him to play.  When he gets a little too selfish or me first, Bud benches him.  Don't act like it doesn't happen.   After every benching, Dennis has responded and played better.  He's not taking nearly as many shots as he was in the beginning of the season when the team had no idea how to play together which shows he's deferring more. 

[MaceCase]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

At 24..  Joe's USG% - 24.6%  

At 24..  Dennis USG% - 29.4%

 

Which is the higher total, 25% of 41 or 29% of 32?  You may not like the answer.

[Diesel]

8 hours ago, AHF said:

Taking shots doesn't get you a higher  ast% - only assisting does that.  There can be correlation but just chucking shots does nothing for ast%.

Usage is basically made up of 3 numbers:  assists, shots and turnovers.

So Dennis has a higher number of assists and a better A/to ratio.  

Joe took a higher % of the team's shots.

Joe had more turnovers.

This is the explanation from wages of war:

Quote

Well let’s examine the Assist Percentage formula:

100 * [Assists] / ((([Minutes Played] / ([Team Minutes Played] / 5)) * [Team Field Goals]) - [Field Goals])

What we are looking for is how often a player assists their team mates shots. Last year the Nuggets made 2572 shots and the Thunder made 2462. Close enough for government work. If Lawson has more assists and their teams have similar totals, how does Westbrook tie him? Let’s look at that another way. Last year, Nuggets that weren’t Ty Lawson made 2198 shots, whereas Thunder players that weren’t Westbrook made 1884 shots.

By taking more shots, Westbrook lowers the total number of shots his team can take and thus ups his Assist percentage! Isn’t math fun?

Same thing. 

[Diesel]

8 hours ago, marco102 said:

Man, stop this foolishness.   If Dennis was shooting the same amount of threes as Curry, I would have a problem with that.  Most of Dennis' shots are at the rim which by definition are high quality shots.  If he was jacking up threes left and right with his below average percentage, I'd def have a problem with it.  Anyway, we get it, you don't like Dennis, but Bud does so it's a moot point to keep acting like he's some guy that should be playing in China because he's not. 

Also, Bud would bench Dennis whenever he damn well pleases and he has this season.  Dennis is playing how Bud wants him to play.  When he gets a little too selfish or me first, Bud benches him.  Don't act like it doesn't happen.   After every benching, Dennis has responded and played better.  He's not taking nearly as many shots as he was in the beginning of the season when the team had no idea how to play together which shows he's deferring more. 

You don't get it.  Maybe because you're a Dennis superfan and I'm not...  But here's the deal.. I would rather we develop our young players and make them more useful by playing a Budball like offense than we pad Dennis' stats and play this Isoball. 

[AHF]

30 minutes ago, Diesel said:

This is the explanation from wages of war:

Same thing. 

It doesn't increase his % at all.  Look at the basic math.  All it does is remove his FGs from the equation and see what % of his teammates shots are assisted by him.  

His shooting doesn't increase the % at all.  It is always based on the number of times his teammates make a FG and how many assists he has.

Example:

Player A has 20 assists.  Player A makes 20 FG.  Player A plays 150 of a total 1000 minutes.  Teammates combine to make 80 FG.  

100*20 /((150/200)*(100-20))= 18.8% AST%

Player B has 20 assists.  Player B makes 40 FG.  Player B played 150 of a total 1000 minutes.  Teammates combine to make 80 FG.

100*20 / ((150/200)*(120-40)) = 18.8% AST%

You are conflating two different conceptsif you think increased shots makes a damn bit of difference in the math.    The AST% is ultimately basically:

Assists/Teammate FGs

with an adjustment for minutes played.  As with the example above, if all other things are equal then doubling the individuals FGs made does not move the needle on AST% at all.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

21 minutes ago, Diesel said:

You don't get it.  Maybe because you're a Dennis superfan and I'm not...  But here's the deal.. I would rather we develop our young players and make them more useful by playing a Budball like offense than we pad Dennis' stats and play this Isoball. 

Any problem with his play tonight?

 

 

[marco102]

26 minutes ago, Diesel said:

You don't get it.  Maybe because you're a Dennis superfan and I'm not...  But here's the deal.. I would rather we develop our young players and make them more useful by playing a Budball like offense than we pad Dennis' stats and play this Isoball. 

Not a Dennis superfan. I'm a Hawks fan.  By definition, I want all Hawks players to improve.  You don't want Dennis to improve which seems counter-intuitive as a Hawks fan, but whatever.  He's shown great improvement this season.  He dropped another 8 assists tonight and I saw plenty of plays where he was being unselfish with drives and kicks and drives and dish. I just don't get what he did to you to for you to have this irrational disdain for him.  

Edited December 31, 2017 by marco102

[JTB]

6 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Not a Dennis superfan. I'm a Hawks fan.  By definition, I want all Hawks players to improve.  You don't want Dennis to improve which seems counter-intuitive as a Hawks fan, but whatever.  He's shown great improvement this season.  He dropped another 8 assists tonight and I saw plenty of plays where he was being unselfish with drives and kicks and drives and dish. I just don't get what he did to you to for you to have this irrational disdain for him.  

That damn Dennis never passes the ball !!!

[hazer]

It’s the the dyed hair. Diesel can’t stand the gold spot. Damn kids...