The Tank Thread

[KB21]

3 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

 

 

The goal is to win a championship. Period

To win a championship in the modern NBA you need superstar players.

If you can’t attract superstar talent via FAgency, then you have to draft it.

The best prospects with superstar potential  go early in the draft. Every once and while a great player slips but towards the top is the best collection of potential superstars.

In order to be in position to draft early you have to have a poor record or trade all your assests away to a team  to move up to their spot. If you don’t have a superstar player on your roster to begin with then usually you don’t have the chips needed to move up to the top of the lottery via trade. So you likely just need a poor record.

Hence tank/rebuild

because the point of it all is to win a championship and not just be a competitive bunch with no real chance of winning anything big.

To do it right you have to start from the bottom up. Draft picks take time to develop. While they develop you find out the holes in their game that you need to build around. If you draft right, there are less holes and shorter development windows. Philly showed what patience can yield. Golden state showed what drafting superstars could do for you. That’s the goal of this Front Office trust and believe. 

Using Philly as an example of why this works isn't going to work.  They are the poster child for why this doesn't work.  They have sucked for several years, and they have no chance of ever winning a title.

[KB21]

1 hour ago, REHawksFan said:

Your stat - even if true (which I doubt) - doesn't prove the conclusion.  How many teams in the last 30 years have won a title without a Top 10 pick?  The answer is less than 1.  ZERO.  Even Detroit had a top 10 pick on its roster.  And most of the champs have multiple top 10 picks.  

Now you claim drafting in the lottery is not a recipe for success, but no team, not one, in the last 30 years has won without having top 10 players on their roster.  So you want Atlanta to have Top 10 players but not draft them?  Is that it?  And how do they attract such players?  Because LeBron, KD, Curry, ADavis, etc... ain't walking through that door in ATL.  

How many teams won a title by tanking?  The answer is less than 1.  ZERO!!   

[Sothron]

1 hour ago, REHawksFan said:

Your stat - even if true (which I doubt) - doesn't prove the conclusion.  How many teams in the last 30 years have won a title without a Top 10 pick?  The answer is less than 1.  ZERO.  Even Detroit had a top 10 pick on its roster.  And most of the champs have multiple top 10 picks.  

Now you claim drafting in the lottery is not a recipe for success, but no team, not one, in the last 30 years has won without having top 10 players on their roster.  So you want Atlanta to have Top 10 players but not draft them?  Is that it?  And how do they attract such players?  Because LeBron, KD, Curry, ADavis, etc... ain't walking through that door in ATL.  

This is what the anti tankers never want to acknowledge. You need superstars to win titles. The only way to get them is draft them, trade for them or sign them as free agents.

The Hawks have NEVER...not ONCE IN FRANCHISE HISTORY signed a superstar free agent. So that is one of the three ways shot down. That leaves trading and signing them. No one wants to come here and with the power players/agents have in determining where they go...we're not trading for one.

So that's strike two. That leaves only one option. Draft them. The best chance to draft them is to have high lottery picks and hope your GM can find that guy.

I have zero confidence in Stink after the bust he drafted this year. So while we once again fail at rebuilding because we have an idiot GM just like last time (Billy Knight and now Stink) the strategy is itself sound.

[KB21]

7 minutes ago, Sothron said:

This is what the anti tankers never want to acknowledge. You need superstars to win titles. The only way to get them is draft them, trade for them or sign them as free agents.

The Hawks have NEVER...not ONCE IN FRANCHISE HISTORY signed a superstar free agent. So that is one of the three ways shot down. That leaves trading and signing them. No one wants to come here and with the power players/agents have in determining where they go...we're not trading for one.

So that's strike two. That leaves only one option. Draft them. The best chance to draft them is to have high lottery picks and hope your GM can find that guy.

I have zero confidence in Stink after the bust he drafted this year. So while we once again fail at rebuilding because we have an idiot GM just like last time (Billy Knight and now Stink) the strategy is itself sound.

Yeah.  This strategy has never worked for anyone else before, but it is a sound strategy because in theory, all you need to do is add star talent.

In reality though, the most important aspect is building and maintaining a winning culture, and building a winning culture and tanking to get a high draft pick are diametrically opposed to one another.  They cannot coexist.  

Therefore, the only thing tanking does is build a losing culture.

[macdaddy]

Young players are good with being on a tanking team because they get to play and showcase themselves.  If the team is run correctly, and these players have talent, then they will improved and grow together into a good team while you're losing.   I'm sure Collins would rather be playing 30 minutes vs spot time on a playoff team.  Once you get to 25 your outlook starts to change.

[kg01]

46 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Yeah.  This strategy has never worked for anyone else before, but it is a sound strategy because in theory, all you need to do is add star talent.

In reality though, the most important aspect is building and maintaining a winning culture, and building a winning culture and tanking to get a high draft pick are diametrically opposed to one another.  They cannot coexist.  

Therefore, the only thing tanking does is build a losing culture.

Prior to last year, we've had a great culture for 10+ years now.

That's gotten us exactly what?  If you don't have a good answer here, you should do some, and I'll use @JayBirdHawk favorite term here, 'self-scouting' and truly determine if you're just arguing to argue.

The reality is it's an ever-changing dynamic which requires a savvy GM/staff to navigate.   To say one way or the other is the end-all/be-all is silly.

The only question is whether or not we have that guy in the driver's seat.  I don't think we do so I just hope he gets lucky.

[Sothron]

48 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Prior to last year, we've had a great culture for 10+ years now.

That's gotten us exactly what?  If you don't have a good answer here, you should do some, and I'll use @JayBirdHawk favorite term here, 'self-scouting' and truly determine if you're just arguing to argue.

The reality is it's an ever-changing dynamic which requires a savvy GM/staff to navigate.   To say one way or the other is the end-all/be-all is silly.

The only question is whether or not we have that guy in the driver's seat.  I don't think we do so I just hope he gets lucky.

That's another thing the few, well just one, anti tanker has zero answer to. The Hawks were "Spurs East" and the longest playoff streak in the East with 10 straight years of making the playoffs. It got us JACK SQUAT.

Did we lure star players here as free agents? No.

Did we lure star players here by demanding they get traded to Atlanta? No.

Did we win any titles without a superstar? No.

I seriously don't know why you guys engage with him. He's already been banned at other sites because he just keeps arguing the same wrong points over and over.

 

 

[kg01]

20 minutes ago, Sothron said:

That's another thing the few, well just one, anti tanker has zero answer to. The Hawks were "Spurs East" and the longest playoff streak in the East with 10 straight years of making the playoffs. It got us JACK SQUAT.

Did we lure star players here as free agents? No.

Did we lure star players here by demanding they get traded to Atlanta? No.

Did we win any titles without a superstar? No.

I seriously don't know why you guys engage with him. He's already been banned at other sites because he just keeps arguing the same wrong points over and over.

 

 

Why do we keep engaging with him?  Heh, maybe I just have a soft spot for folks who've been bann'd.  

I hear you though.  On this topic, the only engaging I'll do is asking for an answer to that question.  What did our "winning" culture actually get us?

It wasn't 1 year, not 2, not 5 .. we had a 10-year playoff run and today, as a tanking/bottom team, we're in the same spot in terms of being able to lure high-level talent.

You may not be able to sell me tanking is the answer but, similarly, you also sure can't sell me that 'winning culture' is the only answer either.

[kg01]

.... and furthermore!!!!

I'll add that I get that you do eventually have to infuse winning habits and culture.  But, more importantly, you need elite talent.  Otherwise, you're just ... there.

[AHF]

On culture, did tons of losing spoils the culture of the Golden State Warriors (now), Houston Astros (now), Chicago Cubs (now), Indianapolis Colts (Manning era), the Cavs (last few years), the Spurs (era in which they got Robinson & Eliot), etc.?  The losing culture continues in places like SAC because they are incompetent and don't end up with good talent.  A team can miss the playoffs 3 year, 5 years, for a decade, etc. and become very good once they get the talent because it is possible to build a culture with that talent even in the face of prior years of losing.

The Warriors went 21 consecutive years without winning a playoff series before the current team got good.  They missed the playoffs 17 of 18 years leading up to their current run.  It didn't spoil their current culture at all.

[JayBirdHawk]

3 hours ago, Sothron said:

This is what the anti tankers never want to acknowledge. You need superstars to win titles. The only way to get them is draft them, trade for them or sign them as free agents.

The Hawks have NEVER...not ONCE IN FRANCHISE HISTORY signed a superstar free agent. So that is one of the three ways shot down. That leaves trading and signing them. No one wants to come here and with the power players/agents have in determining where they go...we're not trading for one.

So that's strike two. That leaves only one option. Draft them. The best chance to draft them is to have high lottery picks and hope your GM can find that guy.

I have zero confidence in Stink after the bust he drafted this year. So while we once again fail at rebuilding because we have an idiot GM just like last time (Billy Knight and now Stink) the strategy is itself sound.

Add to that, you can't trade for these Superstars unless their teams have something you want - young players with potential and high draft capital. Where do you get them - in the draft.

2 hours ago, kg01 said:

Prior to last year, we've had a great culture for 10+ years now.

That's gotten us exactly what?  If you don't have a good answer here, you should do some, and I'll use @JayBirdHawk favorite term here, 'self-scouting' and truly determine if you're just arguing to argue.

The reality is it's an ever-changing dynamic which requires a savvy GM/staff to navigate.   To say one way or the other is the end-all/be-all is silly.

The only question is whether or not we have that guy in the driver's seat.  I don't think we do so I just hope he gets lucky.

self scout.

[EazyRoc]

Better Players (and Coach) = More Wins = Better Culture. You can’t put the cart before the horse.

[KB21]

8 hours ago, kg01 said:

Prior to last year, we've had a great culture for 10+ years now.

That's gotten us exactly what?  If you don't have a good answer here, you should do some, and I'll use @JayBirdHawk favorite term here, 'self-scouting' and truly determine if you're just arguing to argue.

The reality is it's an ever-changing dynamic which requires a savvy GM/staff to navigate.   To say one way or the other is the end-all/be-all is silly.

The only question is whether or not we have that guy in the driver's seat.  I don't think we do so I just hope he gets lucky.

That culture got the Hawks to the Eastern Conference finals, and had they decided not to tank, they would be in the drivers seat in the East this coming year.  Unlike some of you, I don't consider what the Hawks have done the past 10 years to be nothing.  I consider what they did this past season to be an atrocity though.

[KB21]

6 hours ago, EazyRoc said:

Better Players (and Coach) = More Wins = Better Culture. You can’t put the cart before the horse.

Wrong.

A great head coach brings winning culture with him, and he makes the players who come to that culture better in the process.  That's what we had with Bud, and now we have a coach who is fine with intentionally losing games and establishing a losing culture.

[kg01]

5 minutes ago, KB21 said:

That culture got the Hawks to the Eastern Conference finals, and had they decided not to tank, they would be in the drivers seat in the East this coming year.  Unlike some of you, I don't consider what the Hawks have done the past 10 years to be nothing.  I consider what they did this past season to be an atrocity though.

You are lying to yourself.

And, in doing so, you are breaking up the KBTkg01 alliance. 

[EazyRoc]

27 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Wrong.

A great head coach brings winning culture with him, and he makes the players who come to that culture better in the process.  That's what we had with Bud, and now we have a coach who is fine with intentionally losing games and establishing a losing culture.

We had a winning culture here before Bud.

Just now, EazyRoc said:

We had a winning culture here before Bud.

Because we won games and made the playoffs for what ? Like 5 years before he came ?

[thecampster]

15 hours ago, kg01 said:

Prior to last year, we've had a great culture for 10+ years now.

That's gotten us exactly what?  If you don't have a good answer here, you should do some, and I'll use @JayBirdHawk favorite term here, 'self-scouting' and truly determine if you're just arguing to argue.

The reality is it's an ever-changing dynamic which requires a savvy GM/staff to navigate.   To say one way or the other is the end-all/be-all is silly.

The only question is whether or not we have that guy in the driver's seat.  I don't think we do so I just hope he gets lucky.

Actually, subtract Lebron from the East and it would have gotten us at least one ECF.  Lebron ruined everyone's life for the last 8 years. 

[CBAreject]

11 hours ago, KB21 said:

That culture got the Hawks to the Eastern Conference finals, and had they decided not to tank, they would be in the drivers seat in the East this coming year.  Unlike some of you, I don't consider what the Hawks have done the past 10 years to be nothing.  I consider what they did this past season to be an atrocity though.

And our best player on that team was a player drafted #3, acquired via tanking.  

[Diesel]

21 hours ago, Sothron said:

This is what the anti tankers never want to acknowledge. You need superstars to win titles. The only way to get them is draft them, trade for them or sign them as free agents.

The Hawks have NEVER...not ONCE IN FRANCHISE HISTORY signed a superstar free agent. So that is one of the three ways shot down. That leaves trading and signing them. No one wants to come here and with the power players/agents have in determining where they go...we're not trading for one.

So that's strike two. That leaves only one option. Draft them. The best chance to draft them is to have high lottery picks and hope your GM can find that guy.

I have zero confidence in Stink after the bust he drafted this year. So while we once again fail at rebuilding because we have an idiot GM just like last time (Billy Knight and now Stink) the strategy is itself sound.

Nobody ever challenges this premise.   Today... We have watched and listened from the mountains. We have watched with disgust as your technological advancements have been overseen by a child…who scoffs at tradition..

Before you go into how everyteam that has won a championship has had a "Superstar"... let's not follow the false premise that adding superstar = Winning a championship.   Nique was a superstar.  Barkley was a superstar.  Nash was a superstar. Malone was a superstar.  Stockton was a superstar.  

More important than adding a superstar is that in order to win a championship, you have to have a culture.  Superstar + Losing culture = Nothing.    That's why KB can rightly say that no team that has tanked has ever won a championship.   Right now, we may have a superstar on our team, the problem is that we're so busy destroying the culture in Atlanta that we will never win and we will watch the superstar walk.     The bottom line is when you see that bringing in free agents is impossible, it means that you don't have the culture to support a championship team. Superstar or Not.  Because IF we win a championship, somebody will be named superstar. 

 

[Diesel]

20 hours ago, kg01 said:

Prior to last year, we've had a great culture for 10+ years now.

That's gotten us exactly what?  If you don't have a good answer here, you should do some, and I'll use @JayBirdHawk favorite term here, 'self-scouting' and truly determine if you're just arguing to argue.

The reality is it's an ever-changing dynamic which requires a savvy GM/staff to navigate.   To say one way or the other is the end-all/be-all is silly.

The only question is whether or not we have that guy in the driver's seat.  I don't think we do so I just hope he gets lucky.

Did we have a great culture???  If we did, why didn't we have ease bringing in free agents. 

The only time that we have had a true culture shift since Nique was when we had Ferry calling the shots.  And even he made mistakes in how he signed talent.