I’m concerned we TANKED too late

[TheNorthCydeRises]

19 hours ago, EazyRoc said:

Because you don’t keep a bad vet around young developing talent.

That doesn't make any sense.  It's not like the young guys learn from losing.  So what difference does a "bad vet" have to do with anything, when it comes to trying to develop young talent, when you're not good enough to win 70% of yout?  All losing does is piss you off.  Ask Devin Booker.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

5 hours ago, kg01 said:

That's an interesting point.  I didn't want us to tank but I understand why we did.  And, now that we're here, shiiiii .... why whine about it.

I like the Jazz team, how the play, etc.  I like that they're not a team that bottom'd out and all that.  That said, we can't be prisoners of the moment.  Let's not forget, them dudes were well under .500 much of the season.  To their credit, they've put it all together at the right time.

Prospects for the future?  They're basically the west-Hawks with a slightly higher ceiling due to Mitchell's potential for greatness.  Then again, he could simply be their JoeJohn.  A guy destined to keep making all-star teams but having that 2nd round ceiling in the playoffs.

We don't know right now.  We certainly don't know enough to hold them as the shining 'don't-tank' example.

The difference in the Jazz's season this year, and the Hawks, is that the Jazz let everything organically happen.   And the ironic thing is that the turning point for the Jazz, was right after they had a horrible loss at home in mid January . . . to the Atlanta Hawks.

They would then go 13 - 2, going into the All-Star break.  Then they'll go 18 - 6 to close the season.

[EazyRoc]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

That doesn't make any sense.  It's not like the young guys learn from losing.  So what difference does a "bad vet" have to do with anything, when it comes to trying to develop young talent, when you're not good enough to win 70% of yout?  All losing does is piss you off.  Ask Devin Booker.

It makes perfect sense. You don’t want a bad apple veteran in a losing situation to “poison” the mindset of your younger less experienced players that you’re trying to build with going forward. It’s that simple. 

And for every Devin Booker, you have Joel Embiids. The difference between their situations is one had a disgruntled veteran that got shipped out and the other one largely developed with other rookies and “green” players.

I don’t think it’s that complicated.

 

 

Edited May 4, 2018 by EazyRoc

[JayBirdHawk]

6 hours ago, JTB said:

Well I disagree to a certain extent ...none of these young teams have accomplished a championship yet but they have accomplished a lot this season to be young and furthermore it’s very rare to see extremely young teams win championships anyways. 

-Celtics have achieved finding 2 young future all star players after their all star summer pickups went down. That’s huge! Celtics has a very high chance of having a 5 all star lineup once Kyrie and Hayward returns. Not to mention they have a top 5 coach who’s young in brad Stevens and probably the best gm in the league in Ainge.

-76ers have a legit two star combo that’s highly established already in their first season together actually being on the floor for the majority of the year. If fultz lives up to the number 1 pick hype they will be even better. 

-Bucks have the players just need a better coach. I can see Giannis continuing as a all star player and Middleton will soon join him if he continues to have seasons like he did this year (Middleton is severely underrated)

- Raptors are playoff chokers but they are still young enough to continue to dominate the regular season.

 

maybe we shouldn’t have tanked earlier but I’m not trying to be negative when I say I don’t see how we are in a great position to live up to competing with these teams in 5 years when some of these guys will be entering the real prime ages .

Celtics are in a different category, they actually had stars to trade to get these top picks and dumbess GM to give them the picks. Hawks didn't have one star player to trade for a lottery pick. Even Al Horford wouldn't get us a top pick in his last season here. Boston wanted him and was offering Kelly Olynyk and their own pick which was in the 20s, Houston wanted him and Teague for Dwight - how do we rebuild with that?

The Philly team now as it stands was due to Embiids injury, had he been healthy from the get go, I doubt Philly drafts Simmons who then misses his entire year along with Embiid missing a ton more games giving them #1 pick Fultz. 

Stupid Ferry for letting LD stick around.

Raptors can't be trusted!

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Celtics are in a different category, they actually had stars to trade to get these top picks and dumbess GM to give them the picks. Hawks didn't have one star player to trade for a lottery pick. Even Al Horford wouldn't get us a top pick in his last season here. Boston wanted him and was offering Kelly Olynyk and their own pick which was in the 20s, Houston wanted him and Teague for Dwight - how do we rebuild with that?

The Philly team now as it stands was due to Embiids injury, had he been healthy from the get go, I doubt Philly drafts Simmons who then misses his entire year along with Embiid missing a ton more games giving them #1 pick Fultz. 

Stupid Ferry for letting LD stick around.

Raptors can't be trusted!

You know Horford and Sap were way better than old KG and PP, right?  

Garnett played just over one season in New Jersey - a grand total of 101 games over which he averaged ~6.7 ppg, 6.7 rpg, ~45% FG%, a 14.0 PER, -1.2 BPM (yes negative), and a 0.15 VORP.  That is so far from a star it isn't funny.

The key for trading someone like Horford was timing.  Before his final season would have gotten better offers than the deadline platter.  Ibaka was a lesser player than Horford and got a relative king's ransom compared to what you are talking about.  Horford > broken KG & Ibaka (combined but also separately).  Finding a moron on the other side means starting the shopping earlier and striking when the iron is hot.

[JayBirdHawk]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

You know Horford and Sap were way better than old KG and PP, right?  

Garnett played just over one season in New Jersey - a grand total of 101 games over which he averaged ~6.7 ppg, 6.7 rpg, ~45% FG%, a 14.0 PER, -1.2 BPM (yes negative), and a 0.15 VORP.  That is so far from a star it isn't funny.

The key for trading someone like Horford was timing.  Before his final season would have gotten better offers than the deadline platter.  Ibaka was a lesser player than Horford and got a relative king's ransom compared to what you are talking about.  Horford > broken KG & Ibaka (combined but also separately).  Finding a moron on the other side means starting the shopping earlier and striking when the iron is hot.

Better by stats but not name recognition and popularity. Those guys get voted in by fans to Allstar games - Horford and Millsap doesn't.

Unfortunately, perception matters.

Edited May 4, 2018 by JayBirdHawk

[KB21]

40 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Better by stats but not name recognition and popularity. Those guys get voted in by fans to Allstar games - Horford and Millsap doesn't.

Unfortunately, perception matters.

Perception doesn't matter when it comes to winning.

[noble]

14 hours ago, KB21 said:

Perception doesn't matter when it comes to winning.

What exactly have we won? 

[JayBirdHawk]

12 hours ago, KB21 said:

Perception doesn't matter when it comes to winning.

I'm talking specifically about getting value for players.

Hawks won 60 games, had the best undefeted month ever and not one of our players got voted in by fans to the Allstar game (yes I know popularity contest) nobody gave us a fighting chance against Cleveland even with winning 60. No one.

[KB21]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I'm talking specifically about getting value for players.

Hawks won 60 games, had the best undefeted month ever and not one of our players got voted in by fans to the Allstar game (yes I know popularity contest) nobody gave us a fighting chance against Cleveland even with winning 60. No one.

None of that matters to me.  The only thing that matters is getting back to where this team is winning and in the playoffs.

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

None of that matters to me.  The only thing that matters is getting back to where this team is winning and in the playoffs.

Whats the point of being in the playoffs if we're just cannon fodda for 1st round exits.

I want to at least be in the conversation for having a fighting chance to get at minimum to the ECF annually.

[kg01]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

None of that matters to me.  The only thing that matters is getting back to where this team is winning and in the playoffs.

Being desperate for 'playoffs' is what led us into the cycle of being 'so good but no good'.  Signing guys to big contracts out of fear, not because they deserved them.

I don't like the tanking process either but I get we needed to reboot.  That's all this is ... hopefully.

[KB21]

55 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Whats the point of being in the playoffs if we're just cannon fodda for 1st round exits.

I want to at least be in the conversation for having a fighting chance to get at minimum to the ECF annually.

What's the point of even having a team if all you want to do is lose?

[JayBirdHawk]

45 minutes ago, KB21 said:

What's the point of even having a team if all you want to do is lose?

Just varying degrees of losing. 

 

[mcleitsy]

3 hours ago, kg01 said:

Being desperate for 'playoffs' is what led us into the cycle of being 'so good but no good'.  Signing guys to big contracts out of fear, not because they deserved them.

I don't like the tanking process either but I get we needed to reboot.  That's all this is ... hopefully.

Really though, I don't even think we are out for more than another year or two if we nail this draft pick. The East has gotten marginally better, but we're realistically a good draft pick or two away from being better than Miami and Washington. I mean, who could've predicted that the Pacers were going to have the season they did? 

 

I feel like I'm a little bit more optimistic than some of the board. I'm not even that bummed about Bud leaving as long as the next coach we hire can draw up an inbounds play. That ish was soooooo frustrating to watch sometimes. I don't think we're really in contention for another 5 years (But I also don't think Philly is a real contender either, I mean they only beat Miami, big deal.....). Young players take time. But I do think watching Collins and whoever we end up with our first pick or two is going to be super exciting next year regardless of our record. 

[JayBirdHawk]

11 minutes ago, mcleitsy said:

Really though, I don't even think we are out for more than another year or two if we nail this draft pick. The East has gotten marginally better, but we're realistically a good draft pick or two away from being better than Miami and Washington. I mean, who could've predicted that the Pacers were going to have the season they did? 

 

I feel like I'm a little bit more optimistic than some of the board. I'm not even that bummed about Bud leaving as long as the next coach we hire can draw up an inbounds play. That ish was soooooo frustrating to watch sometimes. I don't think we're really in contention for another 5 years (But I also don't think Philly is a real contender either, I mean they only beat Miami, big deal.....). Young players take time. But I do think watching Collins and whoever we end up with our first pick or two is going to be super exciting next year regardless of our record. 

I would be more confident in that assesment if Coach Bud was still on board. I know what he brings. You are hoping that a new coach will be as effective as Bud, and he could be but there is an unknown attached to a new coach and a young team. Schlenk has said he'll be leveraging capspace for 1st round picks meaning no viable free agents. Will he sign quality vets to supplement the team of young players?

I'm excited for the offseason to see where we are headed.

[mcleitsy]

6 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I would be more confident in that assesment if Coach Bud was still on board. I know what he brings. You are hoping that a new coach will be as effective as Bud, and he could be but there is an unknown attached to a new coach and a young team. Schlenk has said he'll be leveraging capspace for 1st round picks meaning no viable free agents. Will he sign quality vets to supplement the team of young players?

I'm excited for the offseason to see where we are headed.

The way I see it, we've got some key vets right now with Baze, Dennis, and Prince. I'm not sure who we add or what that looks like this season, but I know we're going to have at least two rookies who should be getting minutes to go along with them. I think we have good culture when it comes to player personnel, and any sort of optimism has us landing a coach who is a good fit with that. 

Either way, we get to see what Collins is really made of, whether or not Prince takes the next step, and our shiny new draft pick. Oh, and a new coaching regime. At the very least, I think I'll be entertained regardless of our record this season and the team will have a good framework for 2019. 

[JTB]

29 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I would be more confident in that assesment if Coach Bud was still on board. I know what he brings. You are hoping that a new coach will be as effective as Bud, and he could be but there is an unknown attached to a new coach and a young team. Schlenk has said he'll be leveraging capspace for 1st round picks meaning no viable free agents. Will he sign quality vets to supplement the team of young players?

I'm excited for the offseason to see where we are headed.

I took that schlenk statement as he’ll take unwanted short term massive expiring deals along with that teams top draft pick...therefore that helps that team dump a bad salary and free up cap space though they’d have to give up their pick (Cavs would be a good example of this ....with your cap smarts I’m sure you were already aware of this)

 

What i DONT expect schlenk to do is take a ton of bad long term massive contracts along with that teams highest draft pick...because he continues to publicly speak about flexibility within our cap and too many long term bad contracts would be a complete contradiction to staying flexible.

 

so if we take a bad contract this year for a pick I’m expecting it to likely be an expiring deal and if that’s not the case well...he lied ....again. 

 

I say all this to say at some point schlenk will go after valuable free agents after he gets what he wants in the draft. 

Edited May 5, 2018 by JTB

[hazer]

22 hours ago, KB21 said:

Perception doesn't matter when it comes to winning.

I perceive the Hawks ain’t won $hit in the last 10 years.

[hazer]

4 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Whats the point of being in the playoffs if we're just cannon fodda for 1st round exits.

I want to at least be in the conversation for having a fighting chance to get at minimum to the ECF annually.

The point of that is to be a pretender, which Hawks have been for a decade. That’s good enough for some, I guess...