Do you feel the way I do? The current state of the NBA.

[thecampster]

I have something to say and it took me a while to find the right words. I am not sure I like the modern NBA. I'm having trouble with the game play. The modern NBA has devolved into creating 3 point attempts, lobs and floaters in the lane. Post play is almost non-existent. Teams shoot less than 10 mid range jumpers per game. Some have abandoned the shot altogether. Most sets begin with run, run, run. Possessions have grown between 2006 and today from 79 average FG attempts per game to 88.5 FG attempts per game. 3PT attempts have grown from 16 to 34 attempts per game. This should have led to a FG% decrease but instead FG% has improved by .9 %. this means that for 3 quarters, its an allstar game. Very little real defense played while teams run up and down the court jacking up shots. Its starting to become harder to watch. As the Hawks have struggled below their real potential this year, its exacerbates the flaws to me. 2020 took a lot from all of us....its starting to take basketball from me.

These changes are leading to inflated offensive stats, watering down the meaning of a triple double and defense.

See these comparisons in the change in the league over the last 15 years. I looked it up to make sure I wasn't just becoming a grumpy old fart.

Rk	Season	Lg	Age	Ht	Wt	G	MP	FG	FGA	3P	3PA	FT	FTA	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS	FG%	3P%	FT%	Pace	eFG%	TOV%	ORB%	FT/FGA	ORtg
1	2020-21	NBA	26.3	6-6	218	406	241.5	41.0	88.5	12.8	34.9	17.2	22.2	9.9	34.6	44.5	24.7	7.5	5.0	14.2	19.8	112.1	.463	.368	.775	99.6	.536	12.6	22.3	.194	111.8

16	2005-06	NBA	26.5	6-7	220	1230	242.1	35.8	79.0	5.7	16.0	19.6	26.3	11.2	29.8	41.0	20.6	7.2	4.7	14.4	22.8	97.0	.454	.358	.745	90.5	.490	13.7	27.3	.248	106.2

 

The league has gotten smaller, lighter and younger yet efficiency numbers have gone up. Its becoming a hard game to watch for 3 quarters (Unless you enjoy watching people play horse).

 

[Atlantaholic]

The NBA today is inferior in my subjective opinion and the main problems are A) no defense whatsoever by anyone (the way the rules are enforced make it difficult to play any defense) and B) Stars run the league, they are entitled, will force trades to create super teams and over all mope and whine non stop despite making 2x the money Jordan made in his prime.... It's off putting, and makes it dificult to cheer for anyone. C) 3pt chucking emphasis., for all the reasons you posted... every single player on the floor must have the same skill set now, Centers have to shoot, SFs have to shoot from outside, SGs have to shoot from outside, PGs have to shoot from outside. Most teams offensive systems are BASIC, it's not just the Hawks we love to complain about, long gone are the days of the beautiful Spurs ball during the Lebron Heat era.  Those days aren't coming back either. 

Overall, and I undestand this is completely subjective, my interest in the league is easilly at an all time low. Maybe it's cause the Hawks have sucked for so long, but I don't think so. I stuck around watching the Shareef Hawks, almost never missed a game. I find myseslf skipping games now even on the rare ocassion that I have nothing going on during gametime. Would rather spend my time playing videogames or reading a book than watching a game. It's not just "us" either NBA ratings have been trending down for a while now. 

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Atlantaholic

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

I agree with sentiment that this NBA is inferior. I miss '90's NBA basketball with Jordan, Ewing, Kemp/Payton, Stockton/Malone, Barkley, and young Kobe. There was real competition back then and players played tougher. No soccer flops and prima donnas whining in that era.

[Wretch]

I still enjoy the game as a whole, but there are parts of "the new NBA" that bother me.  As it relates to the shift towards the 3ball, I don't like how overvalued stretch bigs have become...and lack of outside shooting is now considered an actual "flaw."  Maybe it's just my inclination towards old school big men, but I don't like it.  I'd like to see more balanced basketball and a return to the paint. 

I've seen it suggested that they back the 3pt line up and take away the corner 3.  I'd like to see that.  I'd like to see them widen arc.  Move the ends along the baseline out to the sidelines and pull the 3pt line back.  Gives us a wider 2pt range and gives back meaning to the 3pt shot.  This was an issue in the 90s too when they (among other things) moved the 3pt line up in an effort to unclog the defensive slog-fest that the game had deteriorated into.  They quickly moved it back when EVERYBODY was out there jacking up 3s.

@PSSSHHHRRR87 beat me to it, but I don't like flopping.  I cuts at the heart of the game and should be treated like a flagrant 2.  In game, it should be two technical free throws for the opposing team, they retain possession, and an automatic ejection for the flopper.  Upon post game review, stiff fines and a multi-game suspension.

There are things I like though - like the coach's challenge and official reviews in the final 2 minutes.  I'm also loving the idea of a play in tournament, though I'm unsure about the seeding.  Is it based upon how close the record is or is it just the seed you finish at?  If it's just the seed, then I don't like that.  I don't think you should have to play in if you've gotten a significant amount of separation from the pack at the bottom.

[benhillboy]

The product is God Awful.  I just check on games here and there if it’s a singular player I like, mostly both-ends plus guards.  I also love seeing the ones I hate lose lol.  Its very hard for me staying a Hawks faithful with Trae in the fold as a torch-bearer for the no-defense playing foul-baiter.
 

Nothing really matters outside of getting up threes and hoping you’re lucky enough to hit em.  Prime example, last night the Sixers shoot 50%, 21-24 from the line, won the rebounding battle, only turned over 12 times, and out scored Utah by 18 points in the paint.  I could still place (and win, hey @TheNorthCydeRises) a sure-fire bet that they were gonna lose by a significant margin simply based off the three point shooting comparisons of them and Utah, Philly’s great defensive efficiency and rating be damned.  The Thunder beat a healthy Bucks team without SGA for goodness sakes.  I’m sure a review of that game would highlight nothing but fortuitous three point shooting, even luckier bounces off misses, and phantom fouls on threes  for OKC and the total opposite for the Bucks, who probably rotated hard and fast defensively at their own peril.  Seeing a team have a great defensive possession only to have some 30% three point shooting bum connect with 2 seconds left makes me turn the channel in disgust.

I don’t see how Pop is still hanging on with his team being irrelevant in this current climate.  He can’t be enjoying anything about coaching anymore when he’s getting his brains beat in by offenses that barely utilize half the clock after he helped build a dynasty on a much more methodical pace.

The people who should be keeping the game sacred have just let the inmates run the asylum.  Commissioners, GMs, and coaches are just as culpable as the one-and-done players who care more about their social media followers and how bright their shoes are instead of cutting off the ball or boxing out.  Add on their selective virtue signaling and their emotions far outweighing their rationale, and I’ve become a slick NHL fan.  They’re the antithesis of the average modern NBA player for certain. 

Edited February 16, 2021 by benhillboy

[Wretch]

14 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

The product is God Awful.  I just check on games here and there if it’s a singular player I like, mostly both-ends plus guards.  I also love seeing the ones I hate lose lol.  Its very hard for me staying a Hawks faithful with Trae in the fold as a torch-bearer for the no-defense playing foul-baiter.
 

Nothing really matters outside of getting up threes and hoping you’re lucky enough to hit em.  Prime example, last night the Sixers shoot 50%, 21-24 from the line, won the rebounding battle, only turned over 12 times, and out scored Utah by 18 points in the paint.  I could still place (and win, hey @TheNorthCydeRises) a sure-fire bet that they were gonna lose by a significant margin simply based off the three point shooting comparisons of them and Utah, Philly’s great defensive efficiency and rating be damned.  The Thunder beat a healthy Bucks team without SGA for goodness sakes.  I’m sure a review of that game would highlight nothing but fortuitous three point shooting, even luckier bounces off misses, and phantom fouls on threes  for OKC and the total opposite for the Bucks, who probably rotated hard and fast defensively at their own peril.  Seeing a team have a great defensive possession only to have some 30% three point shooting bum connect with 2 seconds left makes me turn the channel in disgust.

I don’t see how Pop is still hanging on with his team being irrelevant in this current climate.  He can’t be enjoying anything about coaching anymore when he’s getting his brains beat in by offenses that barely utilize half the clock after he helped build a dynasty on a much more methodical pace.

The people who should be keeping the game sacred have just let the inmates run the asylum.  Commissioners, GMs, and coaches are just as culpable as the one-and-done players who care more about their social media followers and how bright their shoes are instead of cutting off the ball or boxing out.  Add on their selective virtue signaling and their emotions far outweighing their rationale, and I’ve become a slick NHL fan.  They’re the antithesis of the average modern NBA player for certain. 

WOW......they lost that game? lol Holy crap, I had to go check.  Just wow...yeah.  This. 

[macdaddy]

I guess i'm not quite as sour on it as you guys.   I think the offensive talent has gone through the roof actually.   I really don't think flopping is any worse now (Vlade Divac anyone?), we just have endless camera angles, replays and youtube.   

We forget how boring some 90s games could be.   For bball die hards we don't care, and appreciate the nuance and the toughness of the game, but that doesn't put butts in the seats and more importantly doesn't make for good twitter highlights.   

But officiating is a problem now.  It always was but at least you could play defense before.  Now there is no consistency of calls and there are terrible rules regarding what is a foul and what isn't.   If they cleaned this up it would improve things greatly.  

The 3s aren't just a strategy though, it's because the shooters are much, much better now.   The percentage being 10 points higher over the last 15 years is impressive but doesn't even tell the full story.   Stopping the 3 is the focus of every defense now more than ever but guys still knock them down.   30 years ago, if you weren't Reggie Miller, you could get an open 3 almost any time (exaggerating...) but now there's like only 1 or 2 guys on each team who you even leave open at the 3 point line and have to guard everyone else.  

I guess i feel like it will correct and coaches will figure out a way to exploit this style play.  I think it'll take officiating changes.  But as more guys edge toward hitting at a 50% clip and hitting from 5 feet behind the arc it will be hard to stop that as a gameplan.   

I honestly don't know why getting the ball down low for easy twos isn't more of a strategy.  Sorry now i'm just having random thoughts.

[NBASupes]

I think the defenders are better than ever but the rules make it so hard. Posting up is hard because spacing within the paint is limited. 

[txsting]

They need to let teams defend the 3pt shot more.  Touching the guy on the hand in his follow through should not be a foul, for example.  And I like the suggestion of eliminating a corner 3.....you can draw the 3pt on a shallower arc which intersects the sideline at a point, say, 12-18 feet from the baseline.  That would give defenses less 3pt arc to defend, with a deeper average shot.  Without having to get super stretched to defend the corner 3, you would have more defensive manpower available to defend the shorter arc.

If you can drop the efficiency of the 3pt arc with ideas like this (or better ideas), this will show up in the analytics and teams will adjust accordingly, and perhaps we would see a more balanced offensive style.

I agree that the current offensive style is getting kind of dull.

[txsting]

One of these days, all teams are going to have nothing but stretch bigs.  Then, a new Philistine like Shaq is going to come along and go Wilt Chamberlain on all of these skinny guys.

[txsting]

For those who would know, is this how the high school game is being played nowadays?

[macdaddy]

7 minutes ago, txsting said:

Touching the guy on the hand in his follow through should not be a foul, for example.

Thank you.  this is absolutely the worst one.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, thecampster said:

I have something to say and it took me a while to find the right words. I am not sure I like the modern NBA. I'm having trouble with the game play. The modern NBA has devolved into creating 3 point attempts, lobs and floaters in the lane. Post play is almost non-existent. Teams shoot less than 10 mid range jumpers per game. Some have abandoned the shot altogether. Most sets begin with run, run, run. Possessions have grown between 2006 and today from 79 average FG attempts per game to 88.5 FG attempts per game. 3PT attempts have grown from 16 to 34 attempts per game. This should have led to a FG% decrease but instead FG% has improved by .9 %. this means that for 3 quarters, its an allstar game. Very little real defense played while teams run up and down the court jacking up shots. Its starting to become harder to watch. As the Hawks have struggled below their real potential this year, its exacerbates the flaws to me. 2020 took a lot from all of us....its starting to take basketball from me.

These changes are leading to inflated offensive stats, watering down the meaning of a triple double and defense.

See these comparisons in the change in the league over the last 15 years. I looked it up to make sure I wasn't just becoming a grumpy old fart.

Rk	Season	Lg	Age	Ht	Wt	G	MP	FG	FGA	3P	3PA	FT	FTA	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS	FG%	3P%	FT%	Pace	eFG%	TOV%	ORB%	FT/FGA	ORtg
1	2020-21	NBA	26.3	6-6	218	406	241.5	41.0	88.5	12.8	34.9	17.2	22.2	9.9	34.6	44.5	24.7	7.5	5.0	14.2	19.8	112.1	.463	.368	.775	99.6	.536	12.6	22.3	.194	111.8

16	2005-06	NBA	26.5	6-7	220	1230	242.1	35.8	79.0	5.7	16.0	19.6	26.3	11.2	29.8	41.0	20.6	7.2	4.7	14.4	22.8	97.0	.454	.358	.745	90.5	.490	13.7	27.3	.248	106.2

 

The league has gotten smaller, lighter and younger yet efficiency numbers have gone up. Its becoming a hard game to watch for 3 quarters (Unless you enjoy watching people play horse).

 

This is how the game is played on NBA2K.  It's get a layup or jack up a 3.   If guys can hit a shot from 24 feet, instead of taking a 19 footer, I get why teams do it.  But the emphasis on skill at all 3 levels, is being completely lost in this league.  The point guards and other high volume ball handlers still have to score at all 3 levels, but the wings are being pigeon holed into just standing in the corner, waiting for a pass to launch a 3, even if they can't consistently make the shot.

And the guy that has been taken completely out of the game, is the slasher.  The guy who you knew couldn't consistently make long range shots, but could get to the basket and either dunk on you, or draw fouls.  That player is being coached that a 3 is better than a 2 in just about all situations, even if you can't shoot the basketball. 

Cam is being coached like that.  He's a guy who is being given the green light to shoot 50% of his shots as 3 pointers, when he's an average shooter at best, and a horrible 3 point shooter in long stretches.  To me, that's absolutely ridiculous, and a fatal coaching flaw in LP's "system".  You can't keep wishing a bad/inconsistent long range shooter, to suddenly make shots when you need him to do it the most.  

Imagine if a player like Cam Reddish was being coached to play like Eddie Jones.  How much better of an offensive player would he be?

 

 

And this is a mediocre Lakers team that won nothing.  Yet, I loved watching that team with Van Exel and Eddie Jones, and then later with Shaq and a young Kobe, with Eddie.   

Cam's handles may not be as good as Eddie's, but his athleticism is definitely equal.  He's shown glimpses of playing like this.  For the most part though, LP and NBA coaches aren't coaching their elite athletes to play like this anymore.  It's all about spacing the floor and shooting 3s.  

People keep comparing Cam to Paul George.  But what if Cam ( if he somehow finds his niche as a NBA player ), turns out to be this guy . . .

 

Instead, NBA coaches want him to be Terrence Ross.  A guy who is as athletic as anyone in the league, but can also make 3s.  Problem with Terrence, is that he's a STREAKY 3 point shooter.  As much as he's killed the Hawks over the years, he's only a career 37% 3 point shooter who takes 50% of his shots from that range.  That's not bad at all.  But when 50% of your shots are coming from that range, that can be problematic if you're not doing other things, like getting to the FT line or making a high percentage of 2s.  This year, he's not even shooting 33%.

He's actually a pretty good midrange shooter, especially when he uses his speed and athleticism to get to those spots.  But because he is coached to launch a high volume of 3 point shots, his total game gets suppressed, which also drives his efficiency down when those 3 balls aren't falling.  And Orlando wonders why they can't consistently play a high level of basketball

 

[JayBirdHawk]

I'mma keep it simple - I don't like all the 3s, just too many. Looks pretty when they go in, real ugly when they don't. Nothing I hate worse than passing the ball around the perimter 8 times then launching a 3. 

Actually nothing worse than a guy with a shot right AT THE RIM and he passes out for a stupid 3. 

[macdaddy]

Coaches want to win though right?   If this emphasis on 3s isn't a winning formula then why are they doing it?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, benhillboy said:

Nothing really matters outside of getting up threes and hoping you’re lucky enough to hit em.  Prime example, last night the Sixers shoot 50%, 21-24 from the line, won the rebounding battle, only turned over 12 times, and out scored Utah by 18 points in the paint.  I could still place (and win, hey @TheNorthCydeRises) a sure-fire bet that they were gonna lose by a significant margin simply based off the three point shooting comparisons of them and Utah, Philly’s great defensive efficiency and rating be damned.  The Thunder beat a healthy Bucks team without SGA for goodness sakes.  I’m sure a review of that game would highlight nothing but fortuitous three point shooting, even luckier bounces off misses, and phantom fouls on threes  for OKC and the total opposite for the Bucks, who probably rotated hard and fast defensively at their own peril.  Seeing a team have a great defensive possession only to have some 30% three point shooting bum connect with 2 seconds left makes me turn the channel in disgust.

I didn't bet the NBA last night.  But if I were betting on the Philly - Utah game . . I would've taken Utah with the points, and the under.  I mean, hey.  Sixers are without their best scoring threat, and Mike "Molly" Scott is playing center.  And Utah didn't have Conley playing.  Easy pickens, right?  LOL.

Utah does cover the ( -7 ), but both teams score a whopping 257 points because defense took the night off, and neither coach tried to double the hot guy and make someone else beat them.  And even that ( -7 ) was in jeopardy at the end.  Royce O'Neale takes and makes a 3 pointer with 34 seconds left, with the Jazz up 8.  Had he missed, the Sixers probably do not dribble the clock out and score an easy layup.  The the Jazz would've dribbled out the clock and won by 6.

Having said that, I pick the NBA games right about 60% of the time, because the game is so predictable.  Even last night, I wouldn't have bet against the Hawks ( and never will ).  But knowing the state of this team defensively, I would've taken the Over, despite the Knicks being last in the league in scoring. 

Now would I have imagined the Knicks making 17 threes, and a guy like RJ Barret ( who normally couldn't hit a house with the ball if standing 12 inches away from it ) going 3 for 3 from deep?  Hell naw.

[HawkItus]

Offenses in every sport are taught to stretch defensive philosophy until it breaks.  It's cyclical.  Defenses will adjust and offenses will re-adjust.  Biggest thing they could do is stop resetting the clock to 14.  Reset it to 10 and reward good defense.  Also, increase the lane count to 5.  Give big guys time to establish position in the paint and get a shot up.  Give teams 5 seconds to advance past halfcourt reward full-court pressure.