Cam over Bogi for the chip

[Spud2nique]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

Crawford had one huge game 1 against NY with 26 points on 7-14 shooting and then shot 3-23 the rest of the series.  And got a nice long-term deal out of it.  

Not a good comparison.

Ya agreed. I think even back then we could all tell that Crawford wasn’t a long term solution. When Cam makes moves that even fail though there’s something majestic and basketballesque about them.  I dunno, he’s a pretty player to watch. He’s soft on the eyes. (Not makin a move on your man @NBASupes) 

 

You know anyone besides squawk reads this and I may have some explaining to do.  

[Spud2nique]

3 hours ago, capstone21 said:

Bogi was our second best player this year and probably saved our season … his knee that he hurt in the philly series screwed up his game and he hadn’t been the same since.  I expect him to be back to his old self when the new season starts .

I’d say toss up between Capela and Bogi. Capela was there all year and led THE LEAGUE in boards. He was rugged on D.

I’d go,

1. Capela

2. Bogi/Collins

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Ya agreed. I think even back then we could all tell that Crawford wasn’t a long term solution. When Cam makes moves that even fail though there’s something majestic and basketballesque about them.  I dunno, he’s a pretty player to watch. He’s soft on the eyes. (Not makin a move on your man @NBASupes) 

 

You know anyone besides squawk reads this and I may have some explaining to do.  

It's obvious Cam is a thousand times better.

[Spud2nique]

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

It's obvious Cam is a thousand times better.

Infinity +2 
 

-Rosie P.

[Diesel]

22 minutes ago, AHF said:

No comparison between a guy whose potential wasn't highly regarded who leveraged a big contract out of a brief hot spurt in the playoffs and a guy who was chosen by the largest number of his peers and some scouts as the best future pro out of his class despite being very raw who stepped up big in his second year.

Rookie Survey Says Cam Reddish Will Be Better Than Zion Williamson

https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/sports/rookie-survey-says-cam-reddish-will-be-better-than-zion-williamson

Also if we are just comparing what they did in the playoffs, Cam was MUCH better than Crawford on both ends of the floor.  His defense speaks for itself but here is the offense:

Crawford

Cam

Crawford had one huge game 1 against NY with 26 points on 7-14 shooting and then shot 3-23 the rest of the series.  And got a nice long-term deal out of it.  

Not a good comparison.

The point was not about a statistical comparison of the two players???   The point is that we got all goggly eyed over Crawford after one strong playoff game.   Well, I like Cam... have always liked Cam.. go check the footage, I thought Cam would be the better between him and Dre and would be a star in this league... and still believe. 

BUT... when the question is asked should came start over Bogi.. the ramification is that you may as well trade Bogi because why have that contract sitting the Bench if Cam is everything we think he will be...    Then the answer is let's not get all Chris Crawford in this situation.   Cam is the starter of the future, but we don't have to rush that because of what he did versus Milwaukee.   A hurt Bogi, led the playoffs in steals, put up some big shots for us... played well in 2/3 of the series that we had and had he not been injured could have probably helped us passed Milwaukee.     I love Cam's attitude and his performance but that does not merit him being made starter right now..  Let him earn that. 

 

 

[RedDawg#8]

Cam has the highest potential of anyone not named Trae on this team.

But dude shot .365 from the field and .262 from 3P. 

Blame LP, injury, whatever you want. He has to show that he can be consistent before he is given a starting spot.

If we didn't have the depth that we did, it would be a no brainer to just let him play through his slumps. But Bogi has proven that he can be both reliable and sometimes explosive offensively. Good news is we have options. Cam will earn minutes with great play. He will play starters minutes if he is on. You saw Nate pull Kev in game 7 and leave Cam out there. If it's his night it's his night.

But right now, Cam has to earn a starting spot. Bogi's sample size is way more impressive than Cam's as a starter.

No love lost. He will be a star sooner or later. But let him earn it.

[Diesel]

The other thing that this post doesn't consider or at least, I have not heard an argument about...

IF Cam does outplay Bogi for the spot...  Bogi must be traded. 

Considering that Cam is better than Bogi, it would mean that Cam is a player deserving of 30+ Minutes per game.  We still have Heurter.  Bogi's contract is year 2 of a 4 year 72 Million dollar deal.   That's not a contract that we can have coming off the bench.   It would make more sense to trade Bogi and get either future stars or a star in this league. 

This is not a reason to not promote Cam.. but this is the ramification that we have to consider if Cam is promoted and Bogi demoted. 

 

[Peoriabird]

6 minutes ago, Diesel said:

The other thing that this post doesn't consider or at least, I have not heard an argument about...

IF Cam does outplay Bogi for the spot...  Bogi must be traded. 

Considering that Cam is better than Bogi, it would mean that Cam is a player deserving of 30+ Minutes per game.  We still have Heurter.  Bogi's contract is year 2 of a 4 year 72 Million dollar deal.   That's not a contract that we can have coming off the bench.   It would make more sense to trade Bogi and get either future stars or a star in this league. 

This is not a reason to not promote Cam.. but this is the ramification that we have to consider if Cam is promoted and Bogi demoted. 

 

I agree.  Bogi should be traded while his value is high

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

The other thing that this post doesn't consider or at least, I have not heard an argument about...

IF Cam does outplay Bogi for the spot...  Bogi must be traded. 

Considering that Cam is better than Bogi, it would mean that Cam is a player deserving of 30+ Minutes per game.  We still have Heurter.  Bogi's contract is year 2 of a 4 year 72 Million dollar deal.   That's not a contract that we can have coming off the bench.   It would make more sense to trade Bogi and get either future stars or a star in this league. 

This is not a reason to not promote Cam.. but this is the ramification that we have to consider if Cam is promoted and Bogi demoted. 

 

If Cam seizes the starting spot next year and goes to 30+ mpg and Hunter continues to play the majority of his minutes at SF, it would suggest that either (or both) Bogi or Huerter would be underutilized and that the team might better be served by trading one of them.  Would be up to TS to optimize that trade.

That would be a great problem to have to deal with.

[Diesel]

7 minutes ago, AHF said:

If Cam seizes the starting spot next year and goes to 30+ mpg and Hunter continues to play the majority of his minutes at SF, it would suggest that either (or both) Bogi or Huerter would be underutilized and that the team might better be served by trading one of them.  Would be up to TS to optimize that trade.

That would be a great problem to have to deal with.

Not really.   Who are we trading for?  Most players in that range are problem players who happen to have superstar ability.   A lot of people yelling KAT.... KAT is not a great defender.  He's an slightly above average rebounder.  In our system, he's just an offensive upgrade to CC.   Defensively however... may not be.   Maybe Sabonis or Siakim.. but that's a lot too.

[AHF]

54 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

People disrespect John Collins so much around here it ain't even funny anymore.

It is annoying when people disrespect certain players. 

 

From my point of view, the following 3 players have an argument to be our 2nd best player during the regular season.  I am listing them by strength of their credentials and I will note that I think there is a material gap between each one:

Best Case 

Clint 24.3 PER (team leading), 8.2 Win Shares (team leading), .207 WS/48 (team leading), 2.5 BPM (3rd on team), 2.1 VORP (2nd on team), ORtg 125 (2nd on team), DRtg 106 (team leading), +6.0 RAPTOR (team leading), 11.0 WAR (team leading)

JC 20.6 PER (3rd on team), 6.7 Win Shares (3rd on team), .174 WS/48 (2nd on team), 2.1 BPM (4th on team), 1.9 VORP (tied for 3rd on team), ORtg 125 (2nd on team), DRtg 112 (tied for 5th), +2.6 RAPTOR (3rd on team), 6.7 WAR (3rd on team)

Bogi  17.6 PER (4th on team), 3.9 Win Shares (4th on team), .142 WS/48 (6th on team), 3.8 BPM (team leading), 1.9 VORP (tied for 3rd on team), ORtg 122 (6th on team), DRtg 114 (tied with Hunter for 10th),+3.7 RAPTOR (2nd on team), 6.4 WAR (4th on team)

Worst Case

[AHF]

7 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Not really.   Who are we trading for?  Most players in that range are problem players who happen to have superstar ability.   A lot of people yelling KAT.... KAT is not a great defender.  He's an slightly above average rebounder.  In our system, he's just an offensive upgrade to CC.   Defensively however... may not be.   Maybe Sabonis or Siakim.. but that's a lot too.

The only alternative to not having to deal with that problem is because one or more of these players didn't pan out.  Thus, all of them working out is a great problem to deal with. 

If Bogi has to medically retire, we don't have this issue and don't have to account for his minutes.  If Cam reverts to "bad Cam" and doesn't make a claim to be the starter, we won't have to give him big minutes.  Problem solved.  If Huerter suddenly becomes John Jenkins then we don't have to feed him minutes and there is no issue with a crowded rotation.  If Hunter never recovers from his current injury, then suddenly we have only 3 guys to fill 96 minutes and there is no problem.

It is a "great problem" if all 4 reach their potential next year because we will have 4 great choices and only 96 minutes to go around.  Presumably other teams will notice their talent and in a league starved for wings they will carry real trade value (don't see why trade discussions would solely focus on big men).  Cam becoming a star is the best possible outcome for us.  

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

It is annoying when people disrespect certain players. 

 

From my point of view, the following 3 players have an argument to be our 2nd best player during the regular season.  I am listing them by strength of their credentials and I will note that I think there is a material gap between each one:

Best Case 

Clint 24.3 PER (team leading), 8.2 Win Shares (team leading), .207 WS/48 (team leading), 2.5 BPM (3rd on team), 2.1 VORP (2nd on team), ORtg 125 (2nd on team), DRtg 106 (team leading), +6.0 RAPTOR (team leading), 11.0 WAR (team leading)

JC 20.6 PER (3rd on team), 6.7 Win Shares (3rd on team), .174 WS/48 (2nd on team), 2.1 BPM (4th on team), 1.9 VORP (tied for 3rd on team), ORtg 125 (2nd on team), DRtg 112 (tied for 5th), +2.6 RAPTOR (3rd on team), 6.7 WAR (3rd on team)

Bogi  17.6 PER (4th on team), 3.9 Win Shares (4th on team), .142 WS/48 (6th on team), 3.8 BPM (team leading), 1.9 VORP (tied for 3rd on team), ORtg 122 (6th on team), DRtg 114 (tied with Hunter for 10th),+3.7 RAPTOR (2nd on team), 6.4 WAR (4th on team)

Worst Case

I can't figure out the Bogi Hype machine.  Bogi was at best the 4th best player on the team during the regular season and that was because Hunter got hurt.  Bogi is not better than Capela, John or Hunter right now.  Huerter is right on his heels.  Cam has a much higher ceiling than Bogi.

[AHF]

11 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

I can't figure out the Bogi Hype machine.  Bogi was at best the 4th best player on the team during the regular season and that was because Hunter got hurt.  Bogi is not better than Capela, John or Hunter right now.  Huerter is right on his heels.  Cam has a much higher ceiling than Bogi.

Bogi's argument for being 3rd best over JC is just as good as JC's argument for being 2nd best over Cap.

IMO, the proper ranking for last regular season was:

Trae

Cap

JC

Bogi

*Hunter - DQ'd (was looking to have his own case for #2 early in the year)

 

Good case to be made that no player drove our transformation from losing team to 5th seed as much as Bogi.

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Bogi's argument for being 3rd best over JC is just as good as JC's argument for being 2nd best over Cap.

IMO, the proper ranking for last regular season was:

Trae

Cap

JC

Bogi

*Hunter - DQ'd (was looking to have his own case for #2 early in the year)

 

Good case to be made that no player drove our transformation from losing team to 5th seed as much as Bogi.

Regardless no one in their right mind would consider Bogi better than Hunter.  We are talking about who is actually better since we are talking about the future. 

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

It is annoying when people disrespect certain players. 

 

From my point of view, the following 3 players have an argument to be our 2nd best player during the regular season.  I am listing them by strength of their credentials and I will note that I think there is a material gap between each one:

Best Case 

Clint 24.3 PER (team leading), 8.2 Win Shares (team leading), .207 WS/48 (team leading), 2.5 BPM (3rd on team), 2.1 VORP (2nd on team), ORtg 125 (2nd on team), DRtg 106 (team leading), +6.0 RAPTOR (team leading), 11.0 WAR (team leading)

JC 20.6 PER (3rd on team), 6.7 Win Shares (3rd on team), .174 WS/48 (2nd on team), 2.1 BPM (4th on team), 1.9 VORP (tied for 3rd on team), ORtg 125 (2nd on team), DRtg 112 (tied for 5th), +2.6 RAPTOR (3rd on team), 6.7 WAR (3rd on team)

Bogi  17.6 PER (4th on team), 3.9 Win Shares (4th on team), .142 WS/48 (6th on team), 3.8 BPM (team leading), 1.9 VORP (tied for 3rd on team), ORtg 122 (6th on team), DRtg 114 (tied with Hunter for 10th),+3.7 RAPTOR (2nd on team), 6.4 WAR (4th on team)

Worst Case

Metrics say Capela is better than Trae but that's bs

[NBASupes]

In my opinion, JC is the 5th best player on the squad. 

Hunter is clearly better. 

Bogi is clearly better. 

Capela is much better. 

Trae is our best player period. 

When JC was our 2nd best player, we were ass. I'll go further, when he was our 2nd option touches wise, top 15 in the NBA for touches, we were ass. Too limited. 

That said, JC is a pretty good Hooper. Most teams don't have a 4th best player as good as JC. 

[Lurker]

Bogi should start unless Cam does amazingly in fall practice and he should come off after the first 6 minutes for Cam. If and when Cam improves, then you think about switching. But as of right now, the perfect role for him would be to come off the bench to provide a boost of defensive energy and the potential of variable scoring.

Haven't we learned though that who starts can be meaningless? 

[RedDawg#8]

Capela's impact numbers were incredible. His postseason left a bad taste in people's mouths but in the regular season (the thing that gets you to the playoffs) he was the most consistent player for us all season. 

Bogi was by far our second best player after the break. He came on like wildfire. His first half was so bad that it drove his overall impact down, but when he was healthy under Nate, there is no question that he was the X factor that was going to put us over the top. Getting hurt again in the playoffs impacted his play and left some with short term memory.

As far as Dre is concerned, he was clearly on the rise and our 2nd best player before he went down. Problem with that is, that didn't result in wins. Again, blame LP, but the best version of Dre waa during the worst version of the team for what its worth. Maybe his role under Nate changes. Maybe he is asked to sacrifice much like JC was asked to sacrifice. We don't know. His ceiling is definitely number 2 or 3 based on where Cam lands. But as it relates to our winning formula maybe he ends up 4th or 5th.

The great thing about JC, is that he can be whatever you need him to be. If you feed him touches he can produce with efficiency. If you need him to be a floor spacer he can. Roll man, got it. He allows you to play whatever style you want no matter who is out there with him. When we sucked, he sucked. When we were rocking, so was he. That correlated over to the playoffs as well. That should tell you something about his impact.

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

The only alternative to not having to deal with that problem is because one or more of these players didn't pan out.  Thus, all of them working out is a great problem to deal with. 

If Bogi has to medically retire, we don't have this issue and don't have to account for his minutes.  If Cam reverts to "bad Cam" and doesn't make a claim to be the starter, we won't have to give him big minutes.  Problem solved.  If Huerter suddenly becomes John Jenkins then we don't have to feed him minutes and there is no issue with a crowded rotation.  If Hunter never recovers from his current injury, then suddenly we have only 3 guys to fill 96 minutes and there is no problem.

It is a "great problem" if all 4 reach their potential next year because we will have 4 great choices and only 96 minutes to go around.  Presumably other teams will notice their talent and in a league starved for wings they will carry real trade value (don't see why trade discussions would solely focus on big men).  Cam becoming a star is the best possible outcome for us.  

No doubt having all four succeed is a great problem.  My commentary was about finding a good trade for Bogi.  It will not be easy.. especially if the other three are doing well.   We have this fruit cart... everybody wants to fill it up with fruit from other carts... the problem is that we have some of the best fruit on this cart already.   Any trade we make we run the potential of bringing bad fruit back to our cart.   This is not Evan Turner for Clint Capela... back then all we had was bad and underdeveloped fruit.   Now... we're at a place where trading becomes very strategic and it's not as easy as some may believe.  That was my point.