Upgrade coming per Schlenk

[Atlantaholic]

20 hours ago, Wretch said:

I don't understand the "what we should have done" conversation.  I'm not happy with the season and I certainly felt like we needed upgrades.  Even after the run to the ECF's, it was apparent that we needed an upgrade to get to the next level.  However, it's not like we went all-in on this crew.  They overachieved and looked great in the process.  The right thing to do was tweak the team and see how it fared running it back.

Schlenk did that.  Delon was a good pick up and Dieng was initially looking like a decent pick up.  Nate brought in his own staff.  I guess I've seen previous management REFUSE to move after YEARS of ineptitude (like the historic Orlando sweep) and so much terrible GM'ing in general that I'm unable to draw a fair comparison to what others perceive as Schlenk mistakes - to include Travis himself.

I can say that he's on the clock now.  I'd say it started at this year's trade deadline, but certainly the pressure is on to right the ship this summer.  Now we get to see what kind of GM we have.

This team went something like 26-13 after they got healthy. Yes losing to Miami the way we did hurts but again, most of our pieces outside of Trae and Hunter were injured and despite what all the homers said here, Miami is a fantastic team. I still think the roster needs to be tweaked because the injuries themselves seem like part of this core. Hunter, Bogi, Cap are all somewhat injury prone. 

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

This team went something like 26-13 after they got healthy. Yes losing to Miami the way we did hurts but again, most of our pieces outside of Trae and Hunter were injured and despite what all the homers said here, Miami is a fantastic team. I still think the roster needs to be tweaked because the injuries themselves seem like part of this core. Hunter, Bogi, Cap are all somewhat injury prone. 

I like that you left OO off that list and hope he can be healthy all next season (but he could have been included).

[marco102]

7 minutes ago, AHF said:

I like that you left OO off that list and hope he can be healthy all next season (but he could have been included).

Did it make sense at the time to do it though? When it made sense for him he started doing it. He did it. 

My point is @Final_quest quest is complaining about Travis not doing anything in the off season, but his suggestion for how Travis should approach it, is exactly what Travis did.  He made small incremental improvements to the team that just went to the ECF.  Who was the difference maker that he should have targeted. Who should he have jettisoned off for said difference maker? 

Edited May 5, 2022 by marco102

[AHF]

1 minute ago, marco102 said:

Did it make sense at the time to do it though? When it made sense for him he started doing it. He did it. 

My point is @Final_quest quest is complaining about Travis not doing anything in the off season, but his suggestion for how Travis should approach it, is exactly what Travis did.  He made small incremental improvements to the team that just went to the ECF.  Who was the difference maker that he should have targeted. Who should he have jettisoned off for said difference maker? 

I think FQ is making the case that you should look to upgrade every offseason and not be afraid to make even big changes if the price and value are right for the deal.  He is being critical because TS didn't explore that and instead just looked at improving around the edges.

Your question around specific potential deals is a little different in that it involves an analysis of whether we made the right call rather than if we should have tried.  Like even if no one is available, you can pick up the phone and make an offer for KAT or BS or any number of other players.  If it is rejected, you have tried but couldn't find a deal that worked.  If you don't try because you want to keep your core intact, that is a bit of a different issue.

I don't think FQ has recognized that TS did precisely this in season, though.  To me, TS regretted not having explored these deals in the offseason and did what he could to try to identify one that worked during the season.  This offseason there may be nothing that makes sense but we will clearly be making calls and trying to find a deal that works.

[marco102]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

I think FQ is making the case that you should look to upgrade every offseason and not be afraid to make even big changes if the price and value are right for the deal.  He is being critical because TS didn't explore that and instead just looked at improving around the edges.

Your question around specific potential deals is a little different in that it involves an analysis of whether we made the right call rather than if we should have tried.  Like even if no one is available, you can pick up the phone and make an offer for KAT or BS or any number of other players.  If it is rejected, you have tried but couldn't find a deal that worked.  If you don't try because you want to keep your core intact, that is a bit of a different issue.

I don't think FQ has recognized that TS did precisely this in season, though.  To me, TS regretted not having explored these deals in the offseason and did what he could to try to identify one that worked during the season.  This offseason there may be nothing that makes sense but we will clearly be making calls and trying to find a deal that works.

How do we know he didn't do these things?  

Did it make sense to do these things?  FQ is always talking about making changes, but it takes two to tangle when trying to upgrade the roster. 

To me, Travis played it smart, ran it back.  When he saw how it was going during the season, attempted to make changes, was shafted on offers. 

Should he have called Philly right after our series?  Should he have called Milwaukee? Yes sure.  Do we know if he did or didn't? No.  They all would have hung up the phone on him.

I just don't like someone complaining about what they would have done. Then turn around and say what the GM did and haven't  explained who was the difference maker and how they would do it. 

You haven't even suggested who was that big improvement that was out there that he could have reasonable gotten. 

So what's the point of complaining about Travis not looking to make some big improvement or trying to make some big improvement when there was no one available that we could have reasonable gotten without giving up Trae? 

[JayBirdHawk]

Lots of hind sighting as always.

At the end of last season from my recollections it was:

1.  upgrade backup PG and C, (which he did in trading for Wright and signing Dieng)

2. Make a decision on JC, sign him to a deal that keeps him with the Hawks or do a SnT (there were lots of talk about what we can get back in a SnT deal)

3. Should we sign Huerter to an early extension or let him hit RFAcy

4. Keep or trade the pick

 

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, marco102 said:

You would most likely be sending our draft pick along with Charlotte for Ayton. 

If they don't want to pay a luxury tax....

Then having to pay for two late mid first round picks makes no sense.   I stretched out the picks for Ayton to 2026/2028 so that they have time to get from under the CP3 contract and start their next round of growth. 

 

[marco102]

19 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Lots of hind sighting as always.

At the end of last season from my recollections it was:

1.  upgrade backup PG and C, (which he did in trading for Wright and signing Dieng)

2. Make a decision on JC, sign him to a deal that keeps him with the Hawks or do a SnT (there were lots of talk about what we can get back in a SnT deal)

3. Should we sign Huerter to an early extension or let him hit RFAcy

4. Keep or trade the pick

 

 

I will credit @Final_quest he was saying the same thing right after the season.  He just could never come up with a viable upgrade or how Travis could get said upgrade because that's not his job and whatnot.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Atlantaholic said:

This team went something like 26-13 after they got healthy. Yes losing to Miami the way we did hurts but again, most of our pieces outside of Trae and Hunter were injured and despite what all the homers said here, Miami is a fantastic team. I still think the roster needs to be tweaked because the injuries themselves seem like part of this core. Hunter, Bogi, Cap are all somewhat injury prone. 

I give Clint a pass.  We all saw his freak injury.. and he's only 27.

Now, I trade Clint only if we can get a better Center that doesn't break the bank...

[marco102]

Just now, Diesel said:

If they don't want to pay a luxury tax....

Then having to pay for two late mid first round picks makes no sense.   I stretched out the picks for Ayton to 2026/2028 so that they have time to get from under the CP3 contract and start their next round of growth. 

 

It's my understanding that Phx's owner is willing to go into the Luxury tax, just not the levels it would require to keep Ayton on a max.   The higher you are into the tax, I believe the higher the penalty. 

Charlotte's pick isn't until 2023, so it wouldn't be this season.  Gallo would be off their books then. 

[AHF]

40 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Lots of hind sighting as always.

At the end of last season from my recollections it was:

1.  upgrade backup PG and C, (which he did in trading for Wright and signing Dieng)

2. Make a decision on JC, sign him to a deal that keeps him with the Hawks or do a SnT (there were lots of talk about what we can get back in a SnT deal)

3. Should we sign Huerter to an early extension or let him hit RFAcy

4. Keep or trade the pick

 

 

You can definitely make the case that not seeking out a big deal (and running it back) was the right call.  Seems clear to me that TS decided on something like your list of priorities based on the comments he made when he did transition to seeking a bigger change.  (To Marco's question about why I think TS wasn't pursuing bigger deals it is the messaging I see in his comments where I would have expected him to express the idea that they did pursue something other than running it back and it simply didn't work but I don't definitively know).

But for anyone like FQ who thinks we should have pursued transformative deals the issue of whether we should have done in the offseason so is not on the table.

[JayBirdHawk]

25 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I will credit @Final_quest he was saying the same thing right after the season.  He just could never come up with a viable upgrade or how Travis could get said upgrade because that's not his job and whatnot.

Easy to say upgrade, but harder to toss out general ideas for discussion.

[AHF]

9 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Easy to say upgrade, but harder to toss out general ideas for discussion.

Agreed.  And whether we should try to do those types of deals is a different but not wholly unrelated question from the question of whether there is anything realistic or actionable.  My view is that TS tried to make a bigger trade and found nothing actionable at the trade deadline.  He didn't really try in the offseason to do a big deal but there may have been nothing that was obviously actionable (at least from his perspective) at that point which may have been part of the reason TS didn't try.

[marco102]

38 minutes ago, AHF said:

Agreed.  And whether we should try to do those types of deals is a different but not wholly unrelated question from the question of whether there is anything realistic or actionable.  My view is that TS tried to make a bigger trade and found nothing actionable at the trade deadline.  He didn't really try in the offseason to do a big deal but there may have been nothing that was obviously actionable (at least from his perspective) at that point which may have been part of the reason TS didn't try.

This is all I was trying to say.  Thank you sir! 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, marco102 said:

It's my understanding that Phx's owner is willing to go into the Luxury tax, just not the levels it would require to keep Ayton on a max.   The higher you are into the tax, I believe the higher the penalty. 

Charlotte's pick isn't until 2023, so it wouldn't be this season.  Gallo would be off their books then. 

The way I figure it.. they get Gallo they buy him out.. that's a savings of 15 million. 

But they still have Clint and OO 28-29 Million. 

That will propel them into the tax... roughly a little under 10 Million  After the Gallo moves.   This is the beauty and the incentive for our trade. 

I just don't think they want to pay for first round picks under these situations... especially not midrounders.   No guarantees that these guys will turn out to be any good so why spend double for them?

Just for grins.. here's the #16 pick for the last 9 years.

• 2019 Chuma Okeke, Auburn – Orlando Magic
• 2018 Zhaire Smith, Texas Tech University – Philadelphia 76ers
• 2017 Justin Patton, Creighton – Chicago Bulls
• 2016 Guerschon Yabusele, France – Boston Celtics
• 2015 Terry Rozier, Louisville – Boston Celtics
• 2014 Jusuf Nurkic, Bosnia – Denver Nuggets
• 2013 Lucas Nogueira, Brazil – Boston Celtics
• 2012 Royce White, Iowa St. – Houston Rockets
• 2011 Nikola Vucevic, USC – Philadelphia 76ers
• 2010 Luke Babbitt, Nevada – Minnesota Timberwolves

That's like a 20% chance that you get anything good.   IF we offered 2026/2028 both top 3 protected, it's far more enticing than our and Charlotte's pick.  Hell, Charlotte's picks become 2 2nd rounders after next year right?

 

 

[marco102]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

The way I figure it.. they get Gallo they buy him out.. that's a savings of 15 million. 

But they still have Clint and OO 28-29 Million. 

That will propel them into the tax... roughly a little under 10 Million  After the Gallo moves.   This is the beauty and the incentive for our trade. 

I just don't think they want to pay for first round picks under these situations... especially not midrounders.   No guarantees that these guys will turn out to be any good so why spend double for them?

Just for grins.. here's the #16 pick for the last 9 years.

• 2019 Chuma Okeke, Auburn – Orlando Magic
• 2018 Zhaire Smith, Texas Tech University – Philadelphia 76ers
• 2017 Justin Patton, Creighton – Chicago Bulls
• 2016 Guerschon Yabusele, France – Boston Celtics
• 2015 Terry Rozier, Louisville – Boston Celtics
• 2014 Jusuf Nurkic, Bosnia – Denver Nuggets
• 2013 Lucas Nogueira, Brazil – Boston Celtics
• 2012 Royce White, Iowa St. – Houston Rockets
• 2011 Nikola Vucevic, USC – Philadelphia 76ers
• 2010 Luke Babbitt, Nevada – Minnesota Timberwolves

That's like a 20% chance that you get anything good.   IF we offered 2026/2028 both top 3 protected, it's far more enticing than our and Charlotte's pick.  Hell, Charlotte's picks become 2 2nd rounders after next year right?

 

 

Gallo , Clint and OO would not be considered in that trade.  

They wouldn't take Gallo.  Clint and OO is enough to get the trade done ($27 million is enough to get it done).   

For Gallo and Clint ($41.1MM) to work, you'll need PHx to send Tory Craig back 

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[REHawksFan]

3 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

 

It's refreshing to see a GM and Owner both publicly admit failure and not be afraid of setting high expectations.  

[Atlantaholic]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

I give Clint a pass.  We all saw his freak injury.. and he's only 27.

Now, I trade Clint only if we can get a better Center that doesn't break the bank...

Clint has been missing time and playing with an Achilles injury that is chronic.

2 hours ago, AHF said:

I like that you left OO off that list and hope he can be healthy all next season (but he could have been included).

Good point

[RandomFan]