Battle for the Back-up PF role?

[MarylandHawk]

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that not only should Jalen get the bulk of the back up PF mins, he should be given the green light when he comes in. I don’t think he should be put in a box when comes in. They should feature his versatility.  If he gets the rebound he should initiate the break, if he has a mismatch on the wing he should take advantage, if he has a mismatch in the post he should take advantage. He should be looking to make plays. On defense, he should be great weak side help, play passing lanes, defend stretch 4s, rebound and push the ball. 12 to 15 mins a game with nonstop hustle is what I want to see. 

[MarylandHawk]

1 minute ago, Final_quest said:

I guess we need to qualify this a little better.  I am talking about prospects that we never developed and eventually went on to have success.  Jason Terry and Al Horford were salary cap moves or changes to the direction of our franchise.  With Horford you can make the case that he gave up on us.

The larger point is we don't just let guys go undeveloped unless they didn't show any promise or potential.  The evidence shows that we have executed nearly perfectly on that.  There's no one that walked away that deserved an opportunity that we didn't give them. The complaints about giving guys a chance aren't backed up by any historical evidence in our franchise.  

Besides Jalen still has an opportunity.  The idea that he will be unplayed is an over reaction.  My belief is he will get his chance, but these tantrums don't help or change anything.  Just be patient.  

Boris Diop?

[Final_quest]

9 minutes ago, MarylandHawk said:

Boris Diop?

For argument's sake let's say Boris Diaw fits this criteria.  Is the justification for throwing a fit over Jalen not getting enough PT based on a player we traded away too early 17 years ago?  It still doesn't make sense.  There's virtually no history of our franchise not giving someone who actually deserved it a fair chance.  

[MarylandHawk]

8 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

For argument's sake let's say Boris Diaw fits this criteria.  Is the justification for throwing a fit over Jalen not getting enough PT based on a player we traded away too early 17 years ago?  It still doesn't make sense.  There's virtually no history of our franchise not giving someone who actually deserved it a fair chance.  

I with you. Not arguing your point at all but you did get to thinking and the French pastry was the first thing to pop in my mind. 

[AHF]

On 9/9/2022 at 10:40 AM, macdaddy said:

Agree 100% but that's not Delon's game log i don't think?   His 'benching' was earlier but didn't even last a game i don't think because Lou got hurt or sick or something. When Nate said that Delon wasn't exactly lighting it up on the offensive end but Nate should have known that he brought what we needed. 

That is JJ's game log which I referenced here in the post:

Quote

I wasn't happy about him refusing to give Jalen run (especially after Jalen look really good in the games below)

The March timeframe is when Nate formally removed Delon from the rotation and you are right that it was only a couple games where his minutes were single digits.  But it was preceded by a bunch of games where Nate was reducing his minutes to around 15 per game.  And it wasn't because he was struggling offensively at that time (that was early in the year):

He was badly underutilized in that stretch which was bad enough but the idea of removing him from the rotation was really, really dumb.

Nate McMillan said in his postgame remarks that he is “shortening my rotation”.

“It’s nothing he has done. He’s been playing well for us. But it’s really difficult to play a 10-man rotation because everybody gets squeezed. What I did was went to Lou at that backup (PG) — the rotation we had last year.” 

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

I guess we need to qualify this a little better. 

Rasheed Wallace 

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, MarylandHawk said:

Boris Diop?

Is that Desagna’s brother? 

[JayBirdHawk]

54 minutes ago, AHF said:

That is JJ's game log which I referenced here in the post:

The March timeframe is when Nate formally removed Delon from the rotation and you are right that it was only a couple games where his minutes were single digits.  But it was preceded by a bunch of games where Nate was reducing his minutes to around 15 per game.  And it wasn't because he was struggling offensively at that time (that was early in the year):

He was badly underutilized in that stretch which was bad enough but the idea of removing him from the rotation was really, really dumb.

Nate McMillan said in his postgame remarks that he is “shortening my rotation”.

“It’s nothing he has done. He’s been playing well for us. But it’s really difficult to play a 10-man rotation because everybody gets squeezed. What I did was went to Lou at that backup (PG) — the rotation we had last year.” 

It even goes back further.

 

 

[MarylandHawk]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

Is that Desagna’s brother? 

Diaw?  Been so long. Lol. 

[AHF]

43 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

It even goes back further.

 

 

Fair.  But at least at that point Delon was legit struggling.  He was brutal in October and November offensively.  Shockingly bad numbers that made you think some positive regression was coming but hoping it came really, really soon.

[macdaddy]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Fair.  But at least at that point Delon was legit struggling.  He was brutal in October and November offensively.  Shockingly bad numbers that made you think some positive regression was coming but hoping it came really, really soon.

Nate answered the question too.   He was going with Lou because it worked like a charm last year and got us to the ECF.  Lou was no small part of that run.   So that's a legit reason and to his credit reversed course after Lou was obviously done and Delon started playing well. 

[AHF]

15 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Nate answered the question too.   He was going with Lou because it worked like a charm last year and got us to the ECF.  Lou was no small part of that run.   So that's a legit reason and to his credit reversed course after Lou was obviously done and Delon started playing well. 

Until he removed Delon from the rotation in March per the quote I posted earlier.  That was MARCH when he was playing Lou over Delon.  Lou was obviously done by then and Delon had already been playing well.

[macdaddy]

On 9/12/2022 at 2:44 PM, AHF said:

Until he removed Delon from the rotation in March per the quote I posted earlier.  That was MARCH when he was playing Lou over Delon.  Lou was obviously done by then and Delon had already been playing well.

I get your overall point.  That quote is from November 7

[AHF]

45 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I get your overall point.  That quote is from November 7

I'm confused by what quote you are referring to.  Here is the quote I posted:

https://soaringdownsouth.com/2022/03/12/impact-delon-wright-falling-atlanta-hawks-rotation/

March 12 Article:

Quote

“It’s nothing he has done. He’s been playing well for us. But it’s really difficult to play a 10-man rotation because everybody gets squeezed. What I did was went to Lou at that backup (PG) — the rotation we had last year.”

This is the quote where he said he was going with Lou over Delon in March.

[Diesel]

On 9/12/2022 at 11:00 AM, MarylandHawk said:

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that not only should Jalen get the bulk of the back up PF mins, he should be given the green light when he comes in. I don’t think he should be put in a box when comes in. They should feature his versatility.  If he gets the rebound he should initiate the break, if he has a mismatch on the wing he should take advantage, if he has a mismatch in the post he should take advantage. He should be looking to make plays. On defense, he should be great weak side help, play passing lanes, defend stretch 4s, rebound and push the ball. 12 to 15 mins a game with nonstop hustle is what I want to see. 

Indeed this is a Limb.

What do we know about Jalen?  He didn't really play much in College. 

He played a total of 13 games, 278 minutes total.

BY comparison, AJ Griffin played in 39 games for a total of 935 minutes in his 1 year at Duke. 

 In my estimation, Jalen has to earn those minutes.  Maybe in Camp.  Maybe in the preseason.  However, he has to show that he has the potential to be good given the minutes.   Not just because we think he could be good on this level because we don't know much about him on this level... and the thought of a green light is absurd.   Put with the 2nd team, Hunter doesn't even have a green light.   Not if he's on the court with Bogi and Murray.

Now, I know somewhere in your mind you're thinking Diesel is not a fan of Jalen...

Far from the truth. 

I like what I have seen from Jalen thus far.  I'm just not willing to jump out of the window because I haven't seen anything from him on this level.   I heard the same s--- about Marvin Williams.   They gave Marvin the position.  They gave Marvin the green Light... and Marvin never did produce.  Much like Jalen, he had the size.  He had the look.  He had Athleticism.. and in college, we didn't see a lot of him...  But everybody wanted to jump out of the window for him because he was the highest pick our organization had ever had. 

I say give him some preseason run as the BU PF... if he earns his spot, then keep it during the regular season.  However, if he flops through preseason and somebody else plays it better, it's just not his time yet. 

 

 

 

[MarylandHawk]

11 hours ago, Diesel said:

Indeed this is a Limb.

What do we know about Jalen?  He didn't really play much in College. 

He played a total of 13 games, 278 minutes total.

BY comparison, AJ Griffin played in 39 games for a total of 935 minutes in his 1 year at Duke. 

 In my estimation, Jalen has to earn those minutes.  Maybe in Camp.  Maybe in the preseason.  However, he has to show that he has the potential to be good given the minutes.   Not just because we think he could be good on this level because we don't know much about him on this level... and the thought of a green light is absurd.   Put with the 2nd team, Hunter doesn't even have a green light.   Not if he's on the court with Bogi and Murray.

Now, I know somewhere in your mind you're thinking Diesel is not a fan of Jalen...

Far from the truth. 

I like what I have seen from Jalen thus far.  I'm just not willing to jump out of the window because I haven't seen anything from him on this level.   I heard the same s--- about Marvin Williams.   They gave Marvin the position.  They gave Marvin the green Light... and Marvin never did produce.  Much like Jalen, he had the size.  He had the look.  He had Athleticism.. and in college, we didn't see a lot of him...  But everybody wanted to jump out of the window for him because he was the highest pick our organization had ever had. 

I say give him some preseason run as the BU PF... if he earns his spot, then keep it during the regular season.  However, if he flops through preseason and somebody else plays it better, it's just not his time yet. 

 

 

 

When I say green light I mean let him play basketball. No plays, just hustle mins. He has an all around game so it doesn’t mean he will get the ball and jack up shots. He can rebound, bring the ball up court, and pass. He has good off ball help defense and shot blocking capability. And I am only talking 15 mins a game. They can call a couple of plays for him like a lost post screen lob or a pick and roll but I envision him getting most of his points off of put backs and transition plays.   Of course he needs to show he can do it in practice but we have already seen him do it in summer league and the gleague. It is also clear that Scheilds has created mins for him by our offseason moves. Clearly he has earned a shot. 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, MarylandHawk said:

When I say green light I mean let him play basketball. No plays, just hustle mins. He has an all around game so it doesn’t mean he will get the ball and jack up shots. He can rebound, bring the ball up court, and pass. He has good off ball help defense and shot blocking capability. And I am only talking 15 mins a game. They can call a couple of plays for him like a lost post screen lob or a pick and roll but I envision him getting most of his points off of put backs and transition plays.   Of course he needs to show he can do it in practice but we have already seen him do it in summer league and the gleague. It is also clear that Scheilds has created mins for him by our offseason moves. Clearly he has earned a shot. 

IF he's on the court with DM, he will get opportunities.  What I'm saying is let him earn 15 minutes a game.  That's more than a quarter.   We can give him 6 and let him earn the rest.  Like I said before, just because we don't know much about him on this level doesn't mean that he's great.  That's equivalent to the Hawks fan mantra that he's going to be good because we drafted him.   How many times do we have to see this fail before we start to believe that each player is a crap shoot. 

 

 

[Gray Mule]

On 9/12/2022 at 11:51 AM, AHF said:

 

Nate McMillan said in his postgame remarks that he is “shortening my rotation”.

“It’s nothing he has done. He’s been playing well for us. But it’s really difficult to play a 10-man rotation because everybody gets squeezed. What I did was went to Lou at that backup (PG) — the rotation we had last year.” 

This is what he said - - Just my opinion!

"Even with the assistance of all my coaches, I'm not smart enough to manage a 10-man rotation." 

I know. we're discussing JJ here.  I know nothing.  However, his coaches in the G League have often spoken well of him.  Because they have personal knowledge about JJ, I must give heed to their words.

History is not on our side.  Too many draft picks of the Atlanta Hawks have not been as good as we thought they would be when they were drafted.  Most of us on the Squawk have high hopes for JJ and for both of our newest draft picks.  And then, there is our new 2-way player.  Dang it, they can't all be bad, can they?

Under construction..

[MarylandHawk]

10 hours ago, Diesel said:

IF he's on the court with DM, he will get opportunities.  What I'm saying is let him earn 15 minutes a game.  That's more than a quarter.   We can give him 6 and let him earn the rest.  Like I said before, just because we don't know much about him on this level doesn't mean that he's great.  That's equivalent to the Hawks fan mantra that he's going to be good because we drafted him.   How many times do we have to see this fail before we start to believe that each player is a crap shoot. 

 

 

The only issue I have with this is 6 mins is not enough to establish a rhythm. And if he is relegated to standing in the dunkers spot or in the corner, he won’t get a chance to does what he does best. A team has to let young players learn on the job and give them rope to mess up and correct.  The earlier in the season we do that, the better off we will be down the road.  Basketball is not that hard when you already have the skills. Every time he has ever played more than 25 mins on any level up to this point, he has been the beast player on the court. 

[Diesel]

8 hours ago, Gray Mule said:

This is what he said - - Just my opinion!

"Even with the assistance of all my coaches, I'm not smart enough to manage a 10-man rotation." 

I know. we're discussing JJ here.  I know nothing.  However, his coaches in the G League have often spoken well of him.  Because they have personal knowledge about JJ, I must give heed to their words.

History is not on our side.  Too many draft picks of the Atlanta Hawks have not been as good as we thought they would be when they were drafted.  Most of us on the Squawk have high hopes for JJ and for both of our newest draft picks.  And then, there is our new 2-way player.  Dang it, they can't all be bad, can they?

Under construction..

At that point, I don't think his problem was managing.  I think his problem was players wanting more minutes.   You can have 10 good players.. and each of those 10 players want to play 35 minutes a game... except for maybe Lou.   So it's not mismanagement, it is the pressure of trying to keep your players happy. 

You're going to tell Hunter in his contract year, go sit down so for 20 minutes so that we can play  Wright?