Battle for the Back-up PF role?

[Packfill]

On 9/7/2022 at 11:12 PM, JayBirdHawk said:

Did not think this at all.

Agree.  I have to believe th Hawks view him as an injury fill-in who only finds a larger role if OO or JJ can't step into the back-up PF role.  

Personally I think most of the back-up PF minutes go to OO and Hunter.  JJ will get a chance if injuries happen though, but I think it will take an injury to get him an extended look this year.

[MarylandHawk]

Just now, Packfill said:

Agree.  I have to believe th Hawks view him as an injury fill-in who only finds a larger role if OO or JJ can't step into the back-up PF role.  

Personally I think most of the back-up PF minutes go to OO and Hunter.  JJ will get a chance if injuries happen though, but I think it will take an injury to get him an extended look this year.

I hope this is not the case. I hope they carve out 12 mins a game for him and let him get a rhythm.   If injuries happen or he plays consistently at a higher level his mins would go up from there. I have seen nothing that says he cannot give a good 12 hustle mins doing his versatile thing out there. To be honest, his skill set (defensive versatility) is what we are missing.  

[sturt]

I'm more confident that JJ is the 2nd unit PF than I am that OO gets any significant minutes at PF. That's because I've seen what JJ can do, and the Gallo void is there. When you think of what a young Gallo was capable of doing, it seems pretty spot on with what JJ is capable of doing.

Contrast that with OO who, I believe, must demonstrate a legit middle game in order to get PF minutes... something we haven't seen in games, so it remains the greater uncertainty. That, coming from someone, though, who does have some confidence that Godzilla will prove himself capable.

(That... also... coming from... full disclosure... someone who had a lot of confidence that Bruno would prove to be able to score from mid-range and even the arc...   ...sooooo, there's that.) (But don't think that means I've given up on that, either... what was said before remains valid, Bruno's development got sideswiped from his first season, and he's been fighting the good fight, aka uphill battle, ever since... once he's established himself as a reliable post player, then he'll be able to show what he can do beyond 6 feet. But I digress................)

 

The only thing that will prevent JJ from claiming a place in the rotation behind JC is if he's still rehabbing one week ahead of the first game, or if someway somehow (as someone else suggested) it's preferred for him to be the 2nd unit SF.

 

[Final_quest]

9 hours ago, AHF said:

I take the reverse view.

I'm going to be thrilled if sturt's expectation for JJ plays out.  I'll be happy to lose that bet.

If he gets sidelined and doesn't have as big a role as sturt believes, I will be disappointed to win the bet but at least get to try to come up with something fun for sturt to wear for a little while.

My wearing a silly avatar for a bit is never going to diminish my excitement at something positive developing for the Hawks.

I don’t want to bet against something I want to happen.  You can get a thrill out of betting against your team and favorite players and have them prove you wrong.  It’s not for me.  
 

Side question.  Who do you expect as our day one backup PF?  

[AtLaS]

I really hope Nate gives JJ a chance.  For him to rot on the bench for 2 straight years would be a travesty.  He is extremely talented, maybe a bit raw but very talented.  Let's at least see what we have.  

I don't expect AJ to play this year and that is OK.  But JJ needs to see the floor minimum 12 mpg.  Hopefully more minutes anytime OO/JC/Cap miss a game or get into foul trouble.

[sturt]

21 minutes ago, AtLaS said:

I don't expect AJ to play this year

If AJ is healthy, and barring a trade that brings onto the roster a more formidable, more legit rotation-deserving vet, I expect him to extricate JDay from the rotation by the 60-game mark of the season.

[AtLaS]

39 minutes ago, sturt said:

If AJ is healthy, and barring a trade that brings onto the roster a more formidable, more legit rotation-deserving vet, I expect him to extricate JDay from the rotation by the 60-game mark of the season.

It's possible given we traded Heurter but I just don't see Nate playing an 18 year old.  Actually he just turned 19.  But we are thin at SG so hopefully he can play well enough to crack the rotation.  I just don't think it will happen.  He has 4 guys in front of him (DM/BB/DH/JH).  Gallo/Collins/OO all missed significant time last year and JJ still couldn't get on the floor. 

Is he even healthy yet?  I haven't seen or heard a peep about him since the draft.  Would have been nice to at least see him play in the summer league.

 

 

[sturt]

11 minutes ago, AtLaS said:

He has 4 guys in front of him (DM/BB/DH/JH). 

He has 4 guys in front of him, yes, but there are two starters and two back-ups getting rotation minutes (theoretically anyway)...

So, really, it's him versus a 33 year-old whose productivity is noticeably on the decline for that 4th slot.

[thecampster]

For those without a memory that goes back 7 years, I was campaigning for us to trade up and take Kaminsky in the draft. On that draft night we selected Oubre, traded him to Washington for the rights to Jerian Grant and 2 2nd round future picks. We then flipped Grant to Washington for Tim Hardaway Jr.

 

At the college level, this video shows the very awkward, but how nightmareish a match up Kaminsky was for opposing teams.  Rather that watch the highlights. Look at the very pro things he does, floating out for a 3, providing spacing, giving the ball up to the cutter.  Kaminsky is not your traditional back to the basket big but instead is an eyes up, see the floor, move to an open spot, force defensive movement big. His benefits are in the team aspect of offense. He is a guy you can never drift off of.  Is he a dominant Embiid type, NO! Has he been injured a lot, Yes!  Is he valuable....extremely. He's just all elbows which is different than basketball fans are used to seeing. IMHO, this is a catch lightning in a bottle type of a signing. If he stays healthy for 70% of your games, it's a huge win.

 

 

[thecampster]

A couple of things you'll notice about Frank the Tank is he throws his body around to create space. He really pisses people off with his elbows, boney shoulder bumps and hip flings. Second, he is very adept at hunting mismatches.  Lots of bigs try to catch and go 1v1 with opposing bigs.  Not Frank.  He'll move in the post, move in the lane to place a smaller player between himself and the opposing big so he can create mismatches. Forcing opposing centers to scramble on defense, forcing teams to rotate inside and create lanes.  

Anyone who knows old school DePaul basketball, its right out of that mindset. Move in the paint without the ball to force the defense to follow. Frank is not a stand still and wait player. He hunts mismatches.

[Gray Mule]

If Nate was both coach and GM, he would trade the untried JJ for an experienced veteran.

Maybe not.  Remember what he said about JJ and Cooper?  Cooper is gone.

[Final_quest]

31 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

If Nate was both coach and GM, he would trade the untried JJ for an experienced veteran.

Maybe not.  Remember what he said about JJ and Cooper?  Cooper is gone.

So far no one has signed Cooper, either.  In the past 20 years, I have not found someone who put on a Hawks uniform that we drafted, or signed as undrafted, that went on to play any meaningful role with another team.  There is no history of us letting good players get away that we could have developed.  We made draft night trades like Devonte Graham, but we didn't really select him another team did and we traded his draft rights immediately.  

In the pre-Garnett era, teams would draft 21-22 year old rookies and still not play them immediately.  For a senior I am surprised at your lack of patience with developing players and particularly guys who came to us with only a handful of college games under their belt.  We've also posted the long history of Nate playing rookies.  Could it be that JJ and Cooper are actually not ready for significant minutes? 

Sometimes the best things in life come when we are just a little more patient.  I think that may be the case with Jalen.  Give it just a little more time.  

 

[macdaddy]

5 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

In the past 20 years, I have not found someone who put on a Hawks uniform that we drafted, or signed as undrafted, that went on to play any meaningful role with another team.

This is the truth.  We all want our draft picks to turn out to be great players but the vast majority won't.   And NBA coaches and scouts are pretty good at recognizing who has it and who doesn't. 

[Gray Mule]

Being old, I find my time growing short.  I believe that JJ is a good player.  Hawks should play him meaningful minutes and let him prove himself, whether he is good or not.  

 Play or release him.  Do one or the other.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Gray Mule

[Spud2nique]

7 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

So far no one has signed Cooper, either.  In the past 20 years, I have not found someone who put on a Hawks uniform that we drafted, or signed as undrafted, that went on to play any meaningful role with another team.  There is no history of us letting good players get away that we could have developed.  We made draft night trades like Devonte Graham, but we didn't really select him another team did and we traded his draft rights immediately.  

Boris Diaw. He was one of the worst Hawks I’d ever seen. Then he goes to the Suns and becomes a totally better player, then the Spurs under Pop.. he’s the one that comes to mind. BUT.. we gave him all the messed up reps he ever had.

1 minute ago, Gray Mule said:

Being old,

Age is a number, at heart Gramps you’re 29.

[Gray Mule]

Jalen Johnson = Boris Diaw.  Spud, I agree.  Boris, as good as he was, he was never very good here.

[macdaddy]

23 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Boris Diaw. He was one of the worst Hawks I’d ever seen. Then he goes to the Suns and becomes a totally better player, then the Spurs under Pop.. he’s the one that comes to mind. BUT.. we gave him all the messed up reps he ever had.

That's a good call but a lot of * around that.  Boris was terrible here.  He just wasn't ready but also wasn't able to play guard in the NBA.   Hawks failed to realize that soon enough but no one even tried to play him at guard again.  

[Final_quest]

25 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Boris Diaw. He was one of the worst Hawks I’d ever seen. Then he goes to the Suns and becomes a totally better player, then the Spurs under Pop.. he’s the one that comes to mind. BUT.. we gave him all the messed up reps he ever had.

True, he is the one possible example, but at least we traded him for one of the greatest Hawks of all time.  We didn't necessarily "give up" on him.  Even with his improvement we got a better asset in return.  So, there's not an example of a guy we let walk for little to no compensation.

Kevin Huerter will be an interesting one to watch.  Going to Sacramento has not been the place where people go to blossom, though.  It's more of a career killer, but I am pulling for Kevin.  

[JayBirdHawk]

46 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

I have not found someone who put on a Hawks uniform that we drafted, or signed as undrafted, that went on to play any meaningful role with another team.  

Jason Terry. Al Horford 

[Final_quest]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Jason Terry. Al Horford 

I guess we need to qualify this a little better.  I am talking about prospects that we never developed and eventually went on to have success.  Jason Terry and Al Horford were salary cap moves or changes to the direction of our franchise.  With Horford you can make the case that he gave up on us.

The larger point is we don't just let guys go undeveloped unless they didn't show any promise or potential.  The evidence shows that we have executed nearly perfectly on that.  There's no one that walked away that deserved an opportunity that we didn't give them. The complaints about giving guys a chance aren't backed up by any historical evidence in our franchise.  

Besides Jalen still has an opportunity.  The idea that he will be unplayed is an over reaction.  My belief is he will get his chance, but these tantrums don't help or change anything.  Just be patient.