I have to agree with this Kings fan. We look like the Harden-Westbrook Rockets

[JayBirdHawk]

18 minutes ago, marco102 said:

The players too. AJ moves instinctively. Others just stand around. Having an NBA coach really helped his development. 

To me, if AJ is moving off ball, you can blame the other players too for not moving. The others are just used to Trae doing something to get them open shots. I hope the coaches start beating this to death in film sessions and emphasize what AJ is doing.

That is very true. AJ plays instinctual though - not every player can.  This play where he realizes Trae is in trouble and he moves directly to the front of the rim. Somethings can't be taught.

 

.......I don't think Hunter makes this pass up ahead, he would be looking to score.

 

 

[swanlee]

AJ has been great and has a bright future but dont take him being good out the gate to ding our other players. AJ is probably the most polished complete rookie to come around in a longtime. Also his BB IQ and instincts are off the charts.

Edited November 25, 2022 by swanlee

[Wretch]

1 hour ago, StonedDogs said:

So with all of that said and a beautiful breakdown by the way? Who is the problem? 

So, I don't like pointing fingers.  Everyone at this level is extremely talented, it's just a matter of is that talent fitting together and is it being used optimally.  Do we want to be good or do we want to be great?  Greatness is difficult to achieve, but if that's what we're shooting for, then we have to trim the fat.  We need to examine, without bias, sub-optimal aspects of this squad.

The offense is one.  There's nothing "wrong" per se.  We're winning.  Sure we got to the ECF's playing this way, but the league adjusted and sent us back to the drawing board.  Our counter was to bring in DJM.  He's supposed to take the pressure off of Trae, but all that's happening is Trae standing around on the weak side.  Sure the pressure is off of Trae -  he's watching Dejounte take his turn.  It's exactly the same when Trae runs the point. 

This "attack the paint" offense without ball movement means the defense can just drop and guard the penetration.  It'll work as long as we're hitting cutters, lobs, floaters, and midrange jumpers.  I have my doubts about it being effective vs. playoff basketball.  If we're hitting from the perimeter, it's a different story - but still no different than our run to the ECF's and regardless, the ball HAS TO move for CNS.

There's other things that I think are sub-optimal, but I'm still waiting a few more games before I put my concreate opinions out there.  I can speak on Trae's shot selection though.  If he's wide open or has good separation from the defender at +30ft, that's actually a good shot for him.  Pounding the ball, dancing with the defender trying to create space and shooting that same shot with a hand in his face is a wasted possession.  It would be INFINITELY better for him to use his gravity to pull the defense with him and pass to an open shooter.  Even if he puts up a floater or goes glass and misses, it's still better shot but it also opens up 2nd chance opportunities.  Those long shots he misses also create long rebounds which favor the defense.

[Wretch]

2 hours ago, marco102 said:

The players too. AJ moves instinctively. Others just stand around. Having an NBA coach really helped his development. 

To me, if AJ is moving off ball, you can blame the other players too for not moving. The others are just used to Trae doing something to get them open shots. I hope the coaches start beating this to death in film sessions and emphasize what AJ is doing.

AJ makes GREAT cuts too...  Like Jalen though, I gotta keep my enthusiasm in check.  Really like that dude.

[JayBirdHawk]

On 11/24/2022 at 12:41 PM, marco102 said:

Do you guys think the shooting woes is due to the loss of Jent? I think Korver is his replacement.

Maybe their methods are different and it may take time for the team to adjust to his philosophy vs Jents.

I did not think of missing Jent, but this would apply to JC, Trae and Hunter. Maybe there is some adjustment to whatever Korver is teaching.

The rest are new guys though.

[terrell]

13 hours ago, Sothron said:

The FO already had the "move Capela for Ayton" debate this past summer. Trae put his foot down and insisted they keep Capela. There is zero chance Capela gets traded. Capela, btw, has been easily the 2nd best Hawk throughout this season. 

No need to blame JC because they don't give him any shots. Trae and DJM trade off dribbling the air out of the ball with very little actual ball movement from side to side. 

lol ball movement from side to side.. Trae and Murray are the only 2 guys that can pass in the starting lineup...

[Spud2nique]

$hits a one ️ thread doh 

 

So some broke d!ck Kangz fan said we look like the of old and you agree? 
 

 

 

[AUhawksfan]

I just think we need to be reluctant to make a change yet solely because guys are struggling offensively. 
 

It’s nice to not be such a pushover on defense this year. I’d hate to bring someone in that might help the offense, only to just lose it right back on D. 
 

I just can’t picture our shooting getting worse. I still want to see how that plays out.  To be 11-7 with as much offensive struggle we’ve had is still pretty good considering and better than a lot of pundits thought coming into the season. 

[JayBirdHawk]

44 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

$hits a one ️ thread doh 

So some broke d!ck Kangz fan said we look like the of old and you agree? 

 

 

I miss those - well no, not really, lol

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Nate. His lack of creativity on offense is offensive.

Nah.  If players would move, the system works.  Here's the three things that has to happen.

1.  Players move when they aren't involved in the play.

2.  Everybody follows the Spurs way of reading defenses and making decisions.  It used to go that within a half-second of receiving a pass, players should be able to read a defense and decide what they’ll do next: pass, shoot or drive to the basket.  Also, passing can also win.   Right now, our guys are ball greedy and some of that is on Nate.   Nate has to put in more plays that allows others to get involved.   When that happens, you hopefully won't have Dre and his never pass philosophy.  If you do, you trade him. 

3.  Trae and DJM has to be the beginning of passing. I hate to say that an allstar needs training but somebody needs to sit DJM down and teach him who and when to throw pocket passes to and how to throw lobs to jumping bigs.  Trae needs to learn from DJM not to put up momentum breaking shots.  With DJM in the court, there should be less need for Trae to get himself free by jacking up halfcourt bombs. 

The Trae Halfcourt Bomb and the Steph halfcourt bomb are for different reasons. I've always looked at Steph as him being bragadocious saying Hey... look what I can do.. and if you don't extend, I'm going to take it.  Whereas Trae, I have always seen it as Trae recognizing that the defense was settling back and setting up Traps and him saying OK, I will make you come out of that by hitting this shot.  Steph doesn't need it as much because Steph can hit hard shots and he plays in a system that constantly moves.   With Trae,  however,  our guys don't move.. so Trae needs it to create space and to prevent trapping situations. 

But with DJM, Trae should have less need for it. 

 

 

 

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

That is very true. AJ plays instinctual though - not every player can.  This play where he realizes Trae is in trouble and he moves directly to the front of the rim. Somethings can't be taught.

 

.......I don't think Hunter makes this pass up ahead, he would be looking to score.

 

 

You maam are right twice.

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, Wretch said:

he offense is one.  There's nothing "wrong" per se.  We're winning.  Sure we got to the ECF's playing this way, but the league adjusted and sent us back to the drawing board.  Our counter was to bring in DJM.  He's supposed to take the pressure off of Trae, but all that's happening is Trae standing around on the weak side.  Sure the pressure is off of Trae -  he's watching Dejounte take his turn.  It's exactly the same when Trae runs the point. 

That's a misnomer.  The league never adjusted.   We went into the Miami series Injured.  Miami was able to carry out what it always wanted to carry out and that was to focus the defense on Trae. Here's what I'm saying.. Miami has always tried the same things that they did in the playoffs.  However, we've always had an answer in that Clint, JC, Gallo, Lou.. were able to get hot and keep Miami honest on defense.  We didn't have that last year... and therefore, Miami could implement anything that they believed would work.  We went out and got DJM because yes he's another ball handler on the floor and once we learn to play together so that everybody benefits, we will be very hard to beat.   But also because of his defense.   Probably, more importantly because of his defense.  We couldn't stop nobody last year.  It was not just Trae...   Trae, Kev, Gallo, and Bogi were the four corners of NONDEFENSE.

But offensively, All of those guys were great. 

Now that we have DJM, we have a player who can build up our defense and can handle the ball and take pressure off of Trae.. we just have to figure out how to do that.

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

So some broke d!ck Kangz fan said we look like the of old and you agree? 

[StonedDogs]

3 hours ago, Wretch said:

So, I don't like pointing fingers.  Everyone at this level is extremely talented, it's just a matter of is that talent fitting together and is it being used optimally.  Do we want to be good or do we want to be great?  Greatness is difficult to achieve, but if that's what we're shooting for, then we have to trim the fat.  We need to examine, without bias, sub-optimal aspects of this squad.

The offense is one.  There's nothing "wrong" per se.  We're winning.  Sure we got to the ECF's playing this way, but the league adjusted and sent us back to the drawing board.  Our counter was to bring in DJM.  He's supposed to take the pressure off of Trae, but all that's happening is Trae standing around on the weak side.  Sure the pressure is off of Trae -  he's watching Dejounte take his turn.  It's exactly the same when Trae runs the point. 

This "attack the paint" offense without ball movement means the defense can just drop and guard the penetration.  It'll work as long as we're hitting cutters, lobs, floaters, and midrange jumpers.  I have my doubts about it being effective vs. playoff basketball.  If we're hitting from the perimeter, it's a different story - but still no different than our run to the ECF's and regardless, the ball HAS TO move for CNS.

There's other things that I think are sub-optimal, but I'm still waiting a few more games before I put my concreate opinions out there.  I can speak on Trae's shot selection though.  If he's wide open or has good separation from the defender at +30ft, that's actually a good shot for him.  Pounding the ball, dancing with the defender trying to create space and shooting that same shot with a hand in his face is a wasted possession.  It would be INFINITELY better for him to use his gravity to pull the defense with him and pass to an open shooter.  Even if he puts up a floater or goes glass and misses, it's still better shot but it also opens up 2nd chance opportunities.  Those long shots he misses also create long rebounds which favor the defense.

Sounds perfect to me. I couldn't have written that any better. 

[Final_quest]

13 minutes ago, Diesel said:

That's a misnomer.  The league never adjusted.   

 

Obviously the league did not adjust, we had a top offense last year. 

 

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

$hits a one ️ thread doh 

 

So some broke d!ck Kangz fan said we look like the of old and you agree? 
 

 

 

Supes is on tilt for a minute.  We commit the fewest turnovers in the league.  An offense led by Westbrook has got to immediately be top 10 in turnovers.  

Edited November 25, 2022 by Final_quest

[Sothron]

3 hours ago, terrell said:

lol ball movement from side to side.. Trae and Murray are the only 2 guys that can pass in the starting lineup...

Collins has shown he can feed Capela but they seem obsessed with not letting him touch the ball. Hunter and Capela are incapable of passing, sadly. This is why having Nate hurts. Nate is probably the worst offensive minded coach in the game. He wants slow pace, low turnovers and attack mismatches. That's it. Literally it. No motion, no passing game, no low post game and a shocking lack of screens to get Trae and Hunter the ball off a screen for a catch and shoot.

[benhillboy]

2 hours ago, Final_quest said:

Obviously the league did not adjust, we had a top offense last year. 

The Hawks’ offensive rating was 117 last season.  Gallo was 120, Dieng was 123, and Point Diff Delon was 126.  They’re all gone.  
 

DJ has never helped an offense function above average, only a point above SA’s 18th rank last season at 113 and his workload was insane.  Unfortunately with his well below average three point rate and shooting, FT rate, screen, and cut game he likely never will.

Edited November 25, 2022 by benhillboy

[Wretch]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

Nah.  If players would move, the system works.  Here's the three things that has to happen.

1.  Players move when they aren't involved in the play.

2.  Everybody follows the Spurs way of reading defenses and making decisions.  It used to go that within a half-second of receiving a pass, players should be able to read a defense and decide what they’ll do next: pass, shoot or drive to the basket.  Also, passing can also win.   Right now, our guys are ball greedy and some of that is on Nate.   Nate has to put in more plays that allows others to get involved.   When that happens, you hopefully won't have Dre and his never pass philosophy.  If you do, you trade him. 

3.  Trae and DJM has to be the beginning of passing. I hate to say that an allstar needs training but somebody needs to sit DJM down and teach him who and when to throw pocket passes to and how to throw lobs to jumping bigs.  Trae needs to learn from DJM not to put up momentum breaking shots.  With DJM in the court, there should be less need for Trae to get himself free by jacking up halfcourt bombs. 

The Trae Halfcourt Bomb and the Steph halfcourt bomb are for different reasons. I've always looked at Steph as him being bragadocious saying Hey... look what I can do.. and if you don't extend, I'm going to take it.  Whereas Trae, I have always seen it as Trae recognizing that the defense was settling back and setting up Traps and him saying OK, I will make you come out of that by hitting this shot.  Steph doesn't need it as much because Steph can hit hard shots and he plays in a system that constantly moves.   With Trae,  however,  our guys don't move.. so Trae needs it to create space and to prevent trapping situations. 

But with DJM, Trae should have less need for it. 

 

 

 

Agreed on all of this.  1000%.

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

That's a misnomer.  The league never adjusted.   We went into the Miami series Injured.  Miami was able to carry out what it always wanted to carry out and that was to focus the defense on Trae. Here's what I'm saying.. Miami has always tried the same things that they did in the playoffs.  However, we've always had an answer in that Clint, JC, Gallo, Lou.. were able to get hot and keep Miami honest on defense.  We didn't have that last year... and therefore, Miami could implement anything that they believed would work.  We went out and got DJM because yes he's another ball handler on the floor and once we learn to play together so that everybody benefits, we will be very hard to beat.   But also because of his defense.   Probably, more importantly because of his defense.  We couldn't stop nobody last year.  It was not just Trae...   Trae, Kev, Gallo, and Bogi were the four corners of NONDEFENSE.

But offensively, All of those guys were great. 

Now that we have DJM, we have a player who can build up our defense and can handle the ball and take pressure off of Trae.. we just have to figure out how to do that.

 

We were injured during the playoffs (and a lot of the year).  I was right there with you defending the team on that.  But they've been adjusting to Trae for awhile.  Full court press, hard traps, ball denial, and junk zone defense - and Nate would just sit there with that look on his face while we got pounded.  It happened frequently. Even when we were healthy.  Too many times I remember hollering at Nate to make adjustments last season.  There were a few teams that had our number...one of them was one of Denver/Utah (can't remember because I always get them confused lol).

Ultimately, the inability to do anything with Trae taken out of the play shut us down. They're still doing it to an extent.  It's just more zone and less doubles.  I agree that it's a shared responsibility between Nate and the players.  Regardless of the cause or whether or not teams have made adjustments...I think there's a limit to how far this offense can go without ball/player movement and shooters.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Wretch said:

But they've been adjusting to Trae for awhile.  Full court press, hard traps, ball denial, and junk zone defense - and Nate would just sit there with that look on his face while we got pounded.  It happened frequently. Even when we were healthy.  

Teams have tried all those things.. that's true.. but they never succeeded until we were depleted.  We just watched Sacramento try the same type of defense that Miami employed and Trae ended with 33 points and a win.    Let's pay attention on Sunday.

 

[Spud2nique]

On 11/24/2022 at 7:51 AM, marco102 said:

You bring up valid points, I just think it's too early to draw the conclusion we are the Harden/Westbrook rockets. 

This doesn’t hurt your eyes? Shouldn’t this not be in homecourt as well. and blow that whistle.