Haynes: Rival executives are of belief Hawks guard Trae Young could be next star player to request trade if team doesn’t make inroads come playoff time.

[Diesel]

2 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I also believe we were that year, but I don't just blindly attribute that to the head coach.  If anything, I attribute our success that year to Clint Capela playing like a DPOY, and Trae Young doing Trae Young things -- inside of LPs offensive system, which yielded infinitely better results than what Nate has for us on that side of the floor.

If LP was all that then those wins would have come under LP. 

I get it.. you want Nate gone.  Cool.   However, let's not say that he did nothing or that evolution would have made this happen.   It's not blindly attributing, it's noticing that Nate took the same players and the same scheme and won with those.  Science says that if only one variable changed and you got a different outcome......

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

To me, all of these issues aren't an indication that Trae Young is hard to build around.  The biggest thing with Trae, are his shot selection and his turnovers, specifically turnovers that can quickly go the other way and be turned into points.  And shot selection pertains to the type of shots in which he's rushing to get it off, or taking very difficult shots.  Not the open 32 foot shots that people hate, but he actually makes.

Then again, it's not like we're trying to construct an offense that see Trae get the ball coming off of a screen or in different areas of the court.

 

To me, building around Trae is easy.  And we've done it before.

• 2nd ball handler on the floor that can get his own shot
• 3 and D player who can make a 3, and put the ball on the floor
• 4-man who can defend and get his own offense ( or make the 3 )
• 5-man who can rim protect, roll to the basket, and set solid screens to free Trae for open layups

Our fan base really underestimated Gallo's ability to not only make a 3, but to create his own shot.  If Collins had Gallo's offensive arsenal, he'd be an all-star player.  Gallo could shoot, post up, and draw fouls.

 

 

So that brings us to the REAL QUESTION . . . 

Who outside of Trae, is a player that some would consider an all-star caliber player?  

I think Capela's defensive impact is all-star caliber.  I think Dejounte, at times, plays at an all-star caliber level. But who else?  Bogi's shooting, when on, is a game changer. But is Bogi better than Tyler Herro?  Is Capela better than Jared Allen?  Is Dejounte better than Jalen Brunson?

The true championship level teams have at least 2 guys playing at all-star level on almost a nightly basis.  And you need one of those players playing at at least a 1st or 2nd team All-NBA level.  With Trae's shooting struggles, he won't get that recognition.

So we are what we are folks.  I think we can play much better basketball for 48 minutes, with the personnel we have.  But do we need a tweak in the lineup or added personnel?  Do we need a coaching change?  Do we need to deal 1 player off the team?  The answers to all of those questions may be YES, at some point in the season.

But as of right now, we have no choice but to see if these guys can play through it, get healthy, and figure things out.

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

7 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Tony is never trading Trae. Why? So he can go back to 60-70% attendance. Trae is a box office star that kids love, replacing that is next to impossible. Realistically, trading Trae is way far down the list regardless if it makes us better or not. As long as Trae is selling them tickets, we will try to continue to figure out how we can build this around him to win a title. 

 

Plus it would be idiotic to trade the face of the franchise, just to start rebuilding again.  The domino effect of that is you'll lose more than Trae.  You'd lose Murray, Capela, and Bogi in the process.  That'll leave AJ, Collins, Hunter, and JJ as your building blocks.

[AtLaS]

8 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Why do people keep saying that Trae is hard to build around?

 

Here are my reasons.  Ball dominant guys who aren't good on defense are hard to build around, unless you are GOAT level.  He is in the Harden, Westbrook (prime Westbrook), Iverson category.  I would even put Luka in that conversation.  Those guys can ABSOLUTELY win championships, it's just a bit more difficult.  It's just hard to get in an offensive rhythm when you're standing around watching someone pound the rock all game.  This type of offense is also susceptible to playoff defenses which is why these guys have had some atrocious playoff series in their careers.

Unless you are GOAT level like Bron it's hard to run that type of offense and win championships.

Sure coaching can help some of that and I want to see Trae moving without the ball.  He lets Murray handle the rock a lot now but he just stands in the corner when he does.  It seemed like we were making the effort early in the season to get guys moving without the ball and that has now completely stopped.  We had struggles with it and i think they just gave up on it and went back to what they know best which is PNR and everyone standing on the perimeter waiting for the kick out.  The problem is we don't have the greatest shooters, we aren't going to beat teams with better shooters than us with that type of offense.  

 

[kg01]

21 minutes ago, Diesel said:

That's because we were!

You all who deny our 2021 playoff run should be hung by your toes.   These were not 1 offs.   We beat NY...  in a series.   We beat Philly... in a series (7 games)... We won 2 out of 6 from Milwuakee.. .in a series. 

1 game you could say Fluke... but when we beat NY  4 times and Philadelphia 4 times.. that's not the time that you discredit those teams, that's the time that you start to give our team some f***ing credit!!

 

I like the energy but I don't think he was meaning to discredit us.

16 minutes ago, Diesel said:

This is B.S..  There are several teams... every year... that changes coaches and nothing ever happens.  No wins come about.   The team doesn't become better.   So it becomes change just for change sake. 

Every team gets a bump when a coaching changes happens.  The period it lasts is what's in question.

[JeffS17]

17 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Capela better than Jared Allen?

Capela probably more of a tight end than a defensive end

[Spud2nique]

8 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Tony is never trading Trae. Why? So he can go back to 60-70% attendance.

If Trae leaves I’d have to end my 37 year fanhood. I’d finally realize the Hawks don’t want it. Trae is the one. The end.

[Spud2nique]

38 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Why do people keep saying that Trae is hard to build around?

Opposite. Easiest. 

[Spud2nique]

31 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I also believe we were that year, but I don't just blindly attribute that to the head coach.  If anything, I attribute our success that year to Clint Capela playing like a DPOY, and Trae Young doing Trae Young things -- inside of LPs offensive system, which yielded infinitely better results than what Nate has for us on that side of the floor.

Nate just rode. That’s it. It was all the players to me. Which game did Nate help us win that year by himself or with a great play call, I just remember our guys being lit .

[TheNorthCydeRises]

11 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

That’s like me saying I loved watching Barry Sanders, Walter Payton and Ki Jana Carter…  umm …ok Trae…

Speedy, really? 

 

( talking like Will Smith )

 Keep . . Ki Jana's name . . out your freaking mouth!!

 

Sorry . . . Bengals fan PSTD from the 90s kicking in, thinking that Ki-Jana Carter was going to help turn the franchise around, only to see him blow out his knee in his rookie year . . in the 1st preseason game.  He was never the same afterwards.

[Spud2nique]

12 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Every team gets a bump when a coaching changes happens.  The period it lasts is what's in question.

This. When Lloyd left it was as if we were in a relationship with a real uninterested partner who wasn’t giving us any sex, then we find homegirl Nate whose just willing to let us do anything to.. him.. …

and uhhhh, oh boy.. not the ideal time to lose my train of thought.. 

Perhaps I should rephrase..

There was a honeymoon with Nate..

[kg01]

15 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

This. When Lloyd left it was as if we were in a relationship with a real uninterested partner who wasn’t giving us any sex, then we find homegirl Nate whose just willing to let us do anything to.. him.. …

and uhhhh, oh boy.. not the ideal time to lose my train of thought.. 

Perhaps I should rephrase..

There was a honeymoon with Nate..

Good save, squd.  Good save. 

[kg01]

22 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Opposite. Easiest. 

People say Trae is hard to build around because (a) they have a certain way they think teams should play and (b) they lack the imagination to see it any other way.

It's why iRobot was destined to fail as our coach.  It's also why a guy like Nash, despite the flame out in BKN, could be just what the doctor ordered.

Emphasis on "could".  We just need someone innovative. 

[Spud2nique]

22 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

( talking like Will Smith )

 Keep . . Ki Jana's name . . out your freaking mouth!!

 

Sorry . . . Bengals fan PSTD from the 90s kicking in, thinking that Ki-Jana Carter was going to help turn the franchise around, only to see him blow out his knee in his rookie year . . in the 1st preseason game.  He was never the same afterwards.

Ughhhh so many examples and I had to pick a Bengal. I’m sorry, how about Rashard Mendenhall? Steeler! Even better!  

[Spud2nique]

2 minutes ago, kg01 said:

We just need someone innovative. 

This. Bring something new, like that Utah coach, that dude is pretty good. Came from Boston eh?

[kg01]

1 minute ago, Spud2nique said:

This. Bring something new, like that Utah coach, that dude is pretty good. Came from Boston eh?

Do we know if he's they or was their early season surge just a mirage?

Agree with your sentiment though. 

[Spud2nique]

1 minute ago, kg01 said:

Do we know if he's they or was their early season surge just a mirage?

Agree with your sentiment though. 

I thought it was but they won again last night pushing them to 19-16. I’m not sure they are going to be in contention for Wemby anymore or even try. They might be going to the playoffs unless they trade like 3 dudes. 

[gurpilo]

hace 47 minutos, TheNorthCydeRises dijo:

To me, building around Trae is easy.  And we've done it before.

• 2nd ball handler on the floor that can get his own shot
• 3 and D player who can make a 3, and put the ball on the floor
• 4-man who can defend and get his own offense ( or make the 3 )
• 5-man who can rim protect, roll to the basket, and set solid screens to free Trae for open layups

Agree, we are not that far

- 2nd ball handler - Dejounte, Bogi, Griffin today, Malik Beasley might be available, I would target him.

- 3&D player, Deandre Hunter, AJ, we need 2 more at least. Kenrich Williams might be available, Buddy Hield as well.

- 4 that can defend and make a 3, if Collins is not that guy, Kuzma or Markkanen might be, I would target them, even Christian Wood, cheap options, Jalen Smith, good fit.

- 5, Capela is a good fit. OO is not and has good value. I would target Bamba or Wiseman or sign a cheap option as Whiteside or Cousins.

I think we are not that far of what we need, pieces don’t fit and I think main responsible is the coach, poor offense is his responsibility. I think no one questions players like Murray, AJ, Hunter or Capela, they are good fit. Bogi, OO and Collins might be more of a questionmark, if new coach (I am convinced we should try that first) cannot make pieces fit, trade them now for better fit pieces.

 

 

[StonedDogs]

38 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

To me, all of these issues aren't an indication that Trae Young is hard to build around.  The biggest thing with Trae, are his shot selection and his turnovers, specifically turnovers that can quickly go the other way and be turned into points.  And shot selection pertains to the type of shots in which he's rushing to get it off, or taking very difficult shots.  Not the open 32 foot shots that people hate, but he actually makes.

Then again, it's not like we're trying to construct an offense that see Trae get the ball coming off of a screen or in different areas of the court.

 

To me, building around Trae is easy.  And we've done it before.

• 2nd ball handler on the floor that can get his own shot
• 3 and D player who can make a 3, and put the ball on the floor
• 4-man who can defend and get his own offense ( or make the 3 )
• 5-man who can rim protect, roll to the basket, and set solid screens to free Trae for open layups

Our fan base really underestimated Gallo's ability to not only make a 3, but to create his own shot.  If Collins had Gallo's offensive arsenal, he'd be an all-star player.  Gallo could shoot, post up, and draw fouls.

 

 

So that brings us to the REAL QUESTION . . . 

Who outside of Trae, is a player that some would consider an all-star caliber player?  

I think Capela's defensive impact is all-star caliber.  I think Dejounte, at times, plays at an all-star caliber level. But who else?  Bogi's shooting, when on, is a game changer. But is Bogi better than Tyler Herro?  Is Capela better than Jared Allen?  Is Dejounte better than Jalen Brunson?

The true championship level teams have at least 2 guys playing at all-star level on almost a nightly basis.  And you need one of those players playing at at least a 1st or 2nd team All-NBA level.  With Trae's shooting struggles, he won't get that recognition.

So we are what we are folks.  I think we can play much better basketball for 48 minutes, with the personnel we have.  But do we need a tweak in the lineup or added personnel?  Do we need a coaching change?  Do we need to deal 1 player off the team?  The answers to all of those questions may be YES, at some point in the season.

But as of right now, we have no choice but to see if these guys can play through it, get healthy, and figure things out.

 

So then the only team that fits that mold is Boston, GSW, Suns. All teams with good coaching who had players buy into their roles but didn't build around a pg strengths. 

The Hawks already have what you're asking for. They just dont have coaching to hone in the talent. And Young is still hard to build around because his defense is 0. Doesn't matter if you score 30 and 10 when the other team can match it. On offense against good teams on a good night its 5 on 5. But on defense its 5 on 4. How do you fix that problem? Go out and trade for guys who are both elite on offense and defense to mask Young defensive shortcomings? 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

58 minutes ago, AtLaS said:

Here are my reasons.  Ball dominant guys who aren't good on defense are hard to build around, unless you are GOAT level.  He is in the Harden, Westbrook (prime Westbrook), Iverson category.  I would even put Luka in that conversation.  Those guys can ABSOLUTELY win championships, it's just a bit more difficult.  It's just hard to get in an offensive rhythm when you're standing around watching someone pound the rock all game.  This type of offense is also susceptible to playoff defenses which is why these guys have had some atrocious playoff series in their careers.

Unless you are GOAT level like Bron it's hard to run that type of offense and win championships.

Sure coaching can help some of that and I want to see Trae moving without the ball.  He lets Murray handle the rock a lot now but he just stands in the corner when he does.  It seemed like we were making the effort early in the season to get guys moving without the ball and that has now completely stopped.  We had struggles with it and i think they just gave up on it and went back to what they know best which is PNR and everyone standing on the perimeter waiting for the kick out.  The problem is we don't have the greatest shooters, we aren't going to beat teams with better shooters than us with that type of offense.  

 

 

When you talk about guys like Harden, Westbrook, Trae, and Luka, is it on them that no one has stepped up to be the 2nd guy on the team that can play at top level.  Or is it on the organization for not bringing in a guy who could play at top level?

For example, who is the best player that Trae has ever played with?  Matter of fact, I may create a poll right quick, asking that question.

How about Harden in Houston?  We know he played with Durant and Westbrook in OKC, and they made it to the NBA Finals.  But post Durant, was Westbrook in 2018 the best player Harden ever played with in Houston?  Was it Chris Paul?  I'll list the 2nd and 3rd top scorer on those Rockets teams, so people can evaluate if the Rockets had enough talent to win.

• 2013
  • Chandler Parsons ( 15.5 ) - Jeremy Lin ( 13.4 ) 
• 2014
  • Dwight Howard ( 18.4 ) - Chandler Parsons ( 16.6 )
• 2015 
  • Dwight Howard ( 15.8 ) - Trevor Ariza ( 12.0 ) - Josh Smith ( 12.0 )
  • this team got to the WC Finals
• 2016
  • Dwight Howard ( 13.7 ) - Trevor Ariza ( 12.7 )
• 2017
  • Eric Gordon ( 16.2 ) - Lou Williams ( 14.9 )
• 2018
  • Chris Paul ( 18.6 ) - Eric Gordon ( 18.0 )
• 2019
  • Clint Capela ( 16.6 ) - Eric Gordon ( 16.2 )
• 2020
  • Russell Westbrook ( 27.2 ) - Eric Gordon ( 14.4 )

 

I think out of this entire list, only Dwight Howard made an All-Star team.  I believe Chris Paul was hurt.

So how was James Harden supposed to win, when those are his 2nd and 3rd offensive options?

With the last 2 teams he's been on ( Brooklyn and Philly ), lack of talent of his teammates can't be used any more. It's now more about HIS talent possibly going into decline.

I think a guy like Harden maximized what was given to him.  And I believe that Trae does the same thing.