The Rise of JC!!

[Spud2nique]

On 1/10/2023 at 7:23 AM, macdaddy said:

He's justified and i don't blame him for wanting out. 

[Spud2nique]

18 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

 

These two things can't coexist lol

Ooohhhh ohhhhhh I know I know ..

MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Spud2nique]

13 hours ago, JTB said:

Are we interested in Ben Simmons again? Maybe ? 

Which one? The new Ben Simmons the role player or the one from 3 years ago that died?

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

What does that get Trae?

Outta town 

[Wretch]

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

I don't understand what's going on though.  If Trae is somehow part of this unholy trinity of a brain trust why are we trading good players for picks?   What does that get Trae?

Makes no sense.  This is either a cost saving move and/or a precursor to a bigger trade.  The latter, I'm highly doubtful of.  We don't need picks, we need good veteran players - which JC is, so why deal him?  He's the opposite of a cancer and we don't have a PF that can fill his shoes, so it's not "addition by subtraction."  I can't imagine we're getting an upgrade to JC if we're also asking for picks.  It just smells like a money move to me.

58 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

I just saw and read this interview. Didn’t love it from a Hawks perspective. For some reason I thought he would talk about his love for the city or something. 
 

I mean I get it that it’s a business but don’t act like you a FA or something you still a Hawk.

This is just another indicator for poor administration.  If we were going to trade JC, we should have just done it.  Period.  The alternative is dealing with a distraction.  We have enough of that with everybody eyeballing our coaching situation.

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

The Atlanta Hawks aren’t letting John Collins play to his strengths anymore

In that 2019-20 season, when Collins was at his most productive, it was as a versatile offensive threat but primarily as a pick-and-roll partner for Young. Their chemistry was fantastic and Collins’ leaping ability made him an anytime-anywhere lob threat that Young leveraged in a variety of ways.

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That season about 28 percent of his offensive possessions were finished as the screener in the pick-and-roll. This season, that percentage has fallen to 16.3 and instead of catching lobs from Young, we’re seeing a lot more of this.

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The problem is not just Young missing John Collins in favor of taking contested jumpers. But overall, Collins is spending a lot more time stationed in the corner and watching passively as the offensive unfolds in front of him.

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Nearly 30 percent of Collins’ possessions this season have come from spot-ups, up from about 16 percent in 2019-20, basically reversing the pattern with regard to his pick-and-roll opportunities. Collins has some stretch to his game — he’s a 35.8 percent 3-point shooter for his career, despite hitting just 22.9 percent this season. But the most valuable part of his game is his movement, energy and explosiveness in the paint — leaving him to languish in the corner is asking him to lean into the weakest parts of his game at the expense of his strengths.

[macdaddy]

19 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

 

The Atlanta Hawks aren’t letting John Collins play to his strengths anymore

In that 2019-20 season, when Collins was at his most productive, it was as a versatile offensive threat but primarily as a pick-and-roll partner for Young. Their chemistry was fantastic and Collins’ leaping ability made him an anytime-anywhere lob threat that Young leveraged in a variety of ways.

Video Player

 

00:00

 

00:10

That season about 28 percent of his offensive possessions were finished as the screener in the pick-and-roll. This season, that percentage has fallen to 16.3 and instead of catching lobs from Young, we’re seeing a lot more of this.

Video Player

 

00:00

 

00:10

The problem is not just Young missing John Collins in favor of taking contested jumpers. But overall, Collins is spending a lot more time stationed in the corner and watching passively as the offensive unfolds in front of him.

Video Player

 

00:00

 

00:06

Nearly 30 percent of Collins’ possessions this season have come from spot-ups, up from about 16 percent in 2019-20, basically reversing the pattern with regard to his pick-and-roll opportunities. Collins has some stretch to his game — he’s a 35.8 percent 3-point shooter for his career, despite hitting just 22.9 percent this season. But the most valuable part of his game is his movement, energy and explosiveness in the paint — leaving him to languish in the corner is asking him to lean into the weakest parts of his game at the expense of his strengths.

I love JC but this focus on 'using him the wrong way' is as damaging as the all the trade talks.   Yeah he was really effective in the 19-20 season in the pick and roll but we won 20 games.   The goal here isn't to get JC points it's to win games.     We should be looking at what worked in 20-21 with Clint and JC together because their fit was just fine then and he actually took fewer 3s than the season before. 

[Diesel]

2 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I love JC but this focus on 'using him the wrong way' is as damaging as the all the trade talks.   Yeah he was really effective in the 19-20 season in the pick and roll but we won 20 games.   The goal here isn't to get JC points it's to win games.     We should be looking at what worked in 20-21 with Clint and JC together because their fit was just fine then and he actually took fewer 3s than the season before. 

Yeah.  I think Nate went back and dug up the old playbook that Hunt left him.   We have brought back the staggered screen and another movement play .  Last game, Trae put up more floaters than he has all season.  I also believe that  Clint and JC can coexist....  just like JC and OO is coexisting.. because OO is not an outside or midrange threat.  The key is that our offense needs movement. 

If JC is stationed in the corner.. then our offense has failed. 

 

 

[Spud2nique]

47 minutes ago, Wretch said:

This is just another indicator for poor administration.  If we were going to trade JC, we should have just done it.  Period.  The alternative is dealing with a distraction.  We have enough of that with everybody eyeballing our coaching situation.

Ya but 80% or more of us are gonna be pissed at the return we get from any JC trade. Think about it.. when was the last time the Hawks made a big or semi big trade and won it?  Very rare. We usually are the ones getting hosed in trades trying to help other teams like a freakin farm system. 
 

I feel like we invested half a decade on JC in developing him and having him go through some things, and now some smart team is gonna try and trade for him (unless it’s Minny ) and they reap the rewards? That blows! 

[Spud2nique]

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Hunt

That dude had a playbook? Filled with what? Fried chicken recipes?  Melvin right? Only thing that foo had in his playbook was crackers 

Live shot below of Mel Hunt coming into work every day..

[JayBirdHawk]

13 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I love JC but this focus on 'using him the wrong way' is as damaging as the all the trade talks.   Yeah he was really effective in the 19-20 season in the pick and roll but we won 20 games.   The goal here isn't to get JC points it's to win games.     We should be looking at what worked in 20-21 with Clint and JC together because their fit was just fine then and he actually took fewer 3s than the season before. 

I'm less concerned with his number of total points than I am WHERE he is getting those point.

I don't think having him stationary at the 3pt line is the best use of his overall skillset.

[macdaddy]

10 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I'm less concerned with his number of total points than I am WHERE he is getting those point.

I don't think having him stationary at the 3pt line is the best use of his overall skillset.

I'm not advocating for that but in previous seasons he was one of our best 3 point shooters.  In the 19-20 season that folks are pining for he shot his career high in 3s and was the best shooter on the team by far.  Yet they point to that season and only talk about PnR.  

I just make the case that a lot of times we are using JC just fine.   On a 20 win team with rookie wings and no center yeah he can be a 20 point scorer but on a good team with more options being a 15/8 guy is fine too.  Sure not great for his stats but that's not what it's about. 

[Spud2nique]

21 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I'm less concerned with his number of total points than I am WHERE he is getting those point.

I don't think having him stationary at the 3pt line is the best use of his overall skillset.

This is on Nate again. He’s wasted JC’s skills.

[Sothron]

4 hours ago, macdaddy said:

I don't understand what's going on though.  If Trae is somehow part of this unholy trinity of a brain trust why are we trading good players for picks?   What does that get Trae?

Trae and JC are not friends or even friendly with each other. The team wants to get under the LT for next season and one of three players has to go. Trae loves Capela so unless we can get KAT or Embiid coming back to Atlanta Capela is here to stay. That leaves JC and Bogi. Trae likes Bogi. He does not like JC. 

Trae wanted DJM, he got DJM. Team needs LT relief and first rounders to replace what we lost to get DJM. JC is also tired of being in trade rumors for three years straight. If you read his interview recently in the Athletic he's perfectly fine with being traded which is player speak for "I want to be traded". I don't blame him. The one guy in his corner in the FO was Travis and he's basically gone.

 

[Wretch]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

Ya but 80% or more of us are gonna be pissed at the return we get from any JC trade. Think about it.. when was the last time the Hawks made a big or semi big trade and won it?  Very rare. We usually are the ones getting hosed in trades trying to help other teams like a freakin farm system. 
 

I feel like we invested half a decade on JC in developing him and having him go through some things, and now some smart team is gonna try and trade for him (unless it’s Minny ) and they reap the rewards? That blows! 

...but if our intent is to get out from under his contract, then we're only delaying the inevitable.  So we'll still be pissed at the return, but with fantastic bonus options like...creating unwanted distractions, fracturing the front office, and painting a wonderful image of our organization.

God forbid he goes to a great team and makes us look foolish like Huerter did.  Now we'll also have to hear about how we "let Luka go", gave away Huerter, and gave up on John Collins.  All for the ultimate prize in the NBA - saving money!  Surely that'll sell us to potential, high-profile free agents, coaches, and GMs.  Surely...

[Wretch]

2 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Trae and JC are not friends or even friendly with each other. The team wants to get under the LT for next season and one of three players has to go. Trae loves Capela so unless we can get KAT or Embiid coming back to Atlanta Capela is here to stay. That leaves JC and Bogi. Trae likes Bogi. He does not like JC. 

Trae wanted DJM, he got DJM. Team needs LT relief and first rounders to replace what we lost to get DJM. JC is also tired of being in trade rumors for three years straight. If you read his interview recently in the Athletic he's perfectly fine with being traded which is player speak for "I want to be traded". I don't blame him. The one guy in his corner in the FO was Travis and he's basically gone.

 

[macdaddy]

5 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Trae and JC are not friends or even friendly with each other. The team wants to get under the LT for next season and one of three players has to go. Trae loves Capela so unless we can get KAT or Embiid coming back to Atlanta Capela is here to stay. That leaves JC and Bogi. Trae likes Bogi. He does not like JC. 

Trae wanted DJM, he got DJM. Team needs LT relief and first rounders to replace what we lost to get DJM. JC is also tired of being in trade rumors for three years straight. If you read his interview recently in the Athletic he's perfectly fine with being traded which is player speak for "I want to be traded". I don't blame him. The one guy in his corner in the FO was Travis and he's basically gone.

 

Yeah i get and believe all of that.  JC obviously wants to be gone and who can blame him.   But still my question is what does draft picks and being under the tax do for Trae?   If he has say how can he stomach this.  

[sturt]

4 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Trae and JC are not friends or even friendly with each other.

I have to allow that I trust you on this one... but I have to say, they hide it pretty well... when they talk about each other, that's not something I detect, and when they're on the floor, they acknowledge each others' good plays a lot. I suppose that's just them overcompensating, but again, they're pretty good at that, then.

[JayBirdHawk]

11 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Trae and JC are not friends or even friendly with each other.

I guess they never recovered from the film session kerfuffle from back in January of 2021.

During a film session this week after blowing a 15-point lead in the second half to the New York Knicks, John Collins raised several issues about how the Atlanta Hawks are functioning with Trae Young running the offense, three sources tell The Athletic.

Collins discussed how the Hawks need to get into offensive sets more quickly and to limit Young's early shot clock attempts that leave his teammates uninvolved. Collins also shared his desire for more ball movement and flow on offense.

While there was no back-and-forth between the two, Young made it clear he strongly disagreed with the assessment of Collins.

[Wretch]

Just now, sturt said:

I have to allow that I trust you on this one... but I have to say, they hide it pretty well... when they talk about each other, that's not something I detect, and when they're on the floor, they acknowledge each others' good plays a lot. I suppose that's just them overcompensating, but again, they're pretty good at that, then.

My immediate thoughts as well...

It's the combo-package that comes with really good players.  Some of them anyway.  [Warning - mostly baseless speculation incoming!] I wonder if this is at all related to the rumors of players having concerns about playing with Trae and {rumored} negative perceptions of him in general.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

I'm not advocating for that but in previous seasons he was one of our best 3 point shooters.  In the 19-20 season that folks are pining for he shot his career high in 3s and was the best shooter on the team by far.  Yet they point to that season and only talk about PnR.  

I just make the case that a lot of times we are using JC just fine.   On a 20 win team with rookie wings and no center yeah he can be a 20 point scorer but on a good team with more options being a 15/8 guy is fine too.  Sure not great for his stats but that's not what it's about. 

Fully agree it is about what is best for the team.  What is best for the team in terms of JC's role in my mind is different when CC is on the floor and when he is not.  When CC is off the floor, I don't think we are doing enough to take advantage of the really high efficiency scoring that JC provides from closer to the basket.  When CC is on the floor, sadly, the right move is mostly going to be putting JC on the perimeter to create space.  If JC's shooting stays cold that creates huge issues for us in those sets because we won't get the spacing we need as he won't be viewed as a threat.