Hawks Games Missed Due To Injury

[Diesel]

Just now, macdaddy said:

You're comparing one player's calf strain to the bulk of the team missing 3-4 weeks of the season and resorting to starting gleaguers on a 10 day?

Clint has been the one consistent out.   We've had others out with him...  Trae has been out with him.   Hunter has been out with him.   DJM has been out with him.  Bogi has been out with him.  Our ironman has been OO.   Everybody else (every other starter) has been out with Clint. 

So my comparison is not just about Clint... But Clint is the most consistent. 

As far as G-Leaguers...

What do you think our bench is.. .aside from JJ and AJ?

Holidaze and Frank the tank.   Do you think they can get on with any other team?  If we cut them right now today... do you think another team is going to scoop them up?  We got Guys that nobody else wants playing behind our starters. 

We don't have a sweet lou or Gallo or Delon or Kvon to call on anymore..  We call on Frank.  We call on  JHoli...   If we put JHoli on the trading block.. what could he fetch?  Even if he did fetch something because of his contract, I bet he would be cut the next day for roster space. 

 

 

 

[Atlantaholic]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

I would say 10 easy.   We can sit up and count all the games that were tight... like the last game we played...  we were outrebounded 62 to 40 something.   They had 16 more rebounds than us and 14 Offensive rebounds.   That doesn't happen if Clint plays.   There have been games that it was a layup drill for the other team.  That doesn't happen if Clint plays.   Secondly, we struggled early on without Bogi's three point shooting.   We are now shooting 33.2% from three as a team.   Bogi is shooting 38% from three.   For the month of Dec, he was 40.4% in 13 games.  That would have helped.

 

 

 

Where are you getting ten? If you extrapolate Bogi's and Cap's WAR you get between 5-6. We aren't a first place team with a healthy squad, maybe top 5 like the Knicks right now. 

[macdaddy]

49 minutes ago, Diesel said:

As far as G-Leaguers...

What do you think our bench is.. .aside from JJ and AJ?

Have you switched sides of the argument?   That's the whole point.  This team sucks.   It doesn't suck due to injury.  It sucks because of lack of talent 1-10.  

[Atlantaholic]

And regardless can we even count on being healthy? This core has been together now for three years and we've never been healthy. Ever. 

[macdaddy]

Just now, Atlantaholic said:

And regardless can we even count on being healthy? This core has been together now for three years and we've never been healthy. Ever. 

Yes.   I tried to argue this point preseason and was told this was the best bench in the nba.  Bogi, Capela, Hunter, OO, JC have all missed significant time the last 3 years.  What's left are journeymen and rookies. 

[Atlantaholic]

Just now, macdaddy said:

Yes.   I tried to argue this point preseason and was told this was the best bench in the nba.  Bogi, Capela, Hunter, OO, JC have all missed significant time the last 3 years.  What's left are journeymen and rookies. 

Well you were right on the money. I think one thing though we all were sort of counting on and has not materialized at all was the OO would take a significant step forward after a full offseason. He hasn't at all. So you couple OOs and JJs lack of development/impact with Justin Holiday basically hitting his career wall and becoming unplayable we are left with perhaps the worst bench in the NBA to couple with our starting unit (and Bogi) that have missed siginificant time several times in the last three years. Recipe for the suckage we see this year. 

[macdaddy]

Just now, Atlantaholic said:

Well you were right on the money. I think one thing though we all were sort of counting on and has not materialized at all was the OO would take a significant step forward after a full offseason. He hasn't at all. So you couple OOs and JJs lack of development/impact with Justin Holiday basically hitting his career wall and becoming unplayable we are left with perhaps the worst bench in the NBA to couple with our starting unit (and Bogi) that have missed siginificant time several times in the last three years. Recipe for the suckage we see this year. 

Yeah i agree but to me it wasn't even about OO not taking the step.  Justin would be a subpar backup even if he was still playing at his peak level.  Same with Frank.  Bogi we knew was coming back from major knee surgery.  JJ we knew had no nba experience.  I think OO actually is playing like you'd reasonably expect.  My point being that we're not in the situation because things didn't pan out like we hoped.   This is just the team we went with.  This is how good they are. 

Our starting unit with Capela is decent but it's not good enough to make noise in the playoffs without a much, much better quality bench. 

[Atlantaholic]

1 minute ago, macdaddy said:

Yeah i agree but to me it wasn't even about OO not taking the step.  Justin would be a subpar backup even if he was still playing at his peak level.  Same with Frank.  Bogi we knew was coming back from major knee surgery.  JJ we knew had no nba experience.  I think OO actually is playing like you'd reasonably expect.  My point being that we're not in the situation because things didn't pan out like we hoped.   This is just the team we went with.  This is how good they are. 

Our starting unit with Capela is decent but it's not good enough to make noise in the playoffs without a much, much better quality bench. 

Yea, I agree. I think our starting unit would be great... in 2020. Unfortunately you look at the top East teams this isn't the same East the Hawks faced when they made their run. If our bench was very solid I think we could be fighting for the 4th/5th seed, but that's kind of the ceiling for this squad even if we were one of the healthiest teams in the NBA.

[JTB]

9 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

10 wins is a stretch we probably could have 5 more wins with a reasonably healthy Bogi and Cap. But we aren't the only East team with significant injuries.  how many more wins do Bucks have with a healthy Middleton all year + Jrue not missing 10 games and playing off the bench less than 100% the other two? How many more wins does Philly have if Embiid doesn't miss 12 games, Harden doesn't miss 16 games, and Maxey doesn't miss 20? How many more wins do Nets have if Kyrie and Ben don't miss 11 games and TJ Warren and Seth Curry don't miss 20 + games? Miami without Butler missing 13 games and Herro another 9? Toronto had Siakam miss most of November and they are very dependant on him for offense. Charlotte, Detroit Orlando at the bottom of the standings all hammered by big significant injuries. 

 

This is true but I think the hawks situation is unfortunately different but not an excuse.

we don’t have a quality bench and we don’t have a perfect or great fitting starting 5 like many other teams. The hawks aren’t built to a point where 1 starter (doesn’t matter who) ….if that person is out it’s impactful in a major way where we cannot win games.

The roles are too dependent to 1 starter and when that player is out, whatever it is that he provides we can’t recover well from it and we don’t have anyone else in the starting lineup or on the bench that can give us similar or close impact to what that player provides on a nightly basis. Of course the scheme is also an issue but that’s another story.

Trae - our star- main scorer-main playmaker 

DJM - our co star - 2nd main scorer- 2nd main playmaker- 2nd best perimeter defender 

Hunter - best big wing defender 

JC - 2nd best team defender and capable of being efficient, 2nd best rebounder 

Capela - our best defender, anchors the defense, best rebounder by far

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by JTB

[Atlantaholic]

Just now, JTB said:

This is true but I think the hawks situation is unfortunately different but not an excuse.

we don’t have a quality bench and we don’t have a perfect or great fitting starting 5 like many other teams. The hawks aren’t built to a point where 1 starter (doesn’t matter who) ….if that person is out it’s impactful in a major way where we cannot win games.

The roles are too dependent to 1 starter and when that player is out, whatever it is that he provides we can’t recover well from it and we don’t have anyone else in the starting lineup or on the bench that can give us similar or close impact to what that player provides on a nightly basis. Of course the scheme is also an issue but that’s another story.

Trae - our star- main scorer-main playmaker 

DJM - our co star - 2nd main scorer- 2nd main playmaker- 2nd best perimeter defender 

Hunter - best big wing defender 

JC - 2nd best team defender and capable of being efficient, 2nd best rebounder 

Capela - our best defender, anchors the defense, best rebounder by far

 

once we lose one of the starters whatever strength they give leaves in a major way.

Yes we have no depth whatsoever. 

[JTB]

1 minute ago, Atlantaholic said:

Yes we have no depth whatsoever. 

That and the other starters can’t make up for it. 

take Milwaukee for example I don’t really consider them as deep this year but Giannis and brook looez can get by when holiday and Middleton are out.

 

reality check is that Trae and Murray haven’t been able to overcome our health issues. Which is a little concerning because at times you have to carry the full load.

[macdaddy]

To me Murray wasn't the missing piece, he was just the second piece we needed.  We needed a good 2way 2 guard next to Trae and we got him.   But that's not enough.   

[Atlantaholic]

Just now, macdaddy said:

To me Murray wasn't the missing piece, he was just the second piece we needed.  We needed a good 2way 2 guard next to Trae and we got him.   But that's not enough.   

I think if you add him to last year's team (or the year before) and we are better. But losing Gallo, Delon, Huerter in exchange for Murray was a big net negative. I think some of us started to take for granted how much offense we were getting from our bench the last couple of years, not easy at all to make up. 

[JayBirdHawk]

11 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

I think if you add him to last year's team (or the year before) and we are better. But losing Gallo, Delon, Huerter in exchange for Murray was a big net negative. I think some of us started to take for granted how much offense we were getting from our bench the last couple of years, not easy at all to make up. 

I think Gallo is the biggest miss since we didn't even prepare JJ to take over his role last year. Huerter,  knowing that Bogi had surgery was also a big miss - but let's save money, sigh.

[Atlantaholic]

7 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I think Gallo is the biggest miss since we didn't even prepare JJ to take over his role last year. Huerter,  knowing that Bogi had surgery was also a big miss - but let's save money, sigh.

Yea. I like JJ, but I think he is a SF, and in order to play the position he will have to get his 3PT% up. We needed to replace Gallo with a stretch 4, of course easier said then done, but we should have at least taken a shot and we didn't.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

Have you switched sides of the argument?   That's the whole point.  This team sucks.   It doesn't suck due to injury.  It sucks because of lack of talent 1-10.  

You missed it.  The Bench sucks.  I believe that our starters are going to prove to be pretty good.   And then our bench won't be the bench that sucks now but the Bench will be Bogi, AJ, JJ, OO, and Aholi...    That's not that bad of a group.  Honestly, if we can trade Bogi for Buddy...   Make it happen Kyle!!!

 

 

[macdaddy]

34 minutes ago, Diesel said:

You missed it.  The Bench sucks.  I believe that our starters are going to prove to be pretty good.   And then our bench won't be the bench that sucks now but the Bench will be Bogi, AJ, JJ, OO, and Aholi...    That's not that bad of a group.  Honestly, if we can trade Bogi for Buddy...   Make it happen Kyle!!!

 

 

When are they going to prove to be good?   Capela aint' the star of the group.  If you have a lineup and remove the third, fourth, or maybe fifth best player and it all falls apart well then maybe they ain't that good.  

[Atlantaholic]

3 hours ago, macdaddy said:

When are they going to prove to be good?   Capela aint' the star of the group.  If you have a lineup and remove the third, fourth, or maybe fifth best player and it all falls apart well then maybe they ain't that good.  

Cap is easily the best player from the starting five this year. Trae is second by a considerable margin, then probably DJM. Collins and Hunter have been ass. 

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, Atlantaholic said:

Cap is easily the best player from the starting five this year. Trae is second by a considerable margin, then probably DJM. Collins and Hunter have been ass. 

by what measure?   I feel like your judging on how well they play their role not how effective they are.    If you're picking players for your team are you taking Capela first?

[AHF]

11 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

by what measure?   I feel like your judging on how well they play their role not how effective they are.    If you're picking players for your team are you taking Capela first?

By PER it is a dead heat:

21.8 for Trae

21.7 for Clint

 

WS/48 is clear win for Clint

.197 for Clint (best on the team)

.115 for Trae (next best starter)

 

RAPTOR is another win for Clint

Clint has the best Box Score / On-Off / and Overall RAPTOR numbers for the team (Trae is second)

 

WAR is another win for Clint if pro-rated based on minutes played (Trae leads the team in WAR with CC second but CC has a bit higher contribution per minute played)

 

Trae has Clint in BPM and VORP (while VORP is a cumulative stat Trae still has higher number on a pro-rated basis)

 

So you can definitely make the case that CC is a top 2 player and possibly even the most impactful this season.  I personally would put him #2 noting the bump that big men get in a lot of these metrics for taking a higher % of shots close to the basket and the nice bump that gives to efg%.