Hawks Games Missed Due To Injury

[benhillboy]

Just to clear the air on how “injured” people think the Hawks are and their “lack of cohesion.”  They’ve endured the 4th least missed games due to injury:

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/injured-reserve/cumulative-team/

Hawks’ two reigning All Stars playing most of the season.  heat, Grizz, and Cavs fans looking at y’all pretty side-eyed.

Edited January 13, 2023 by benhillboy

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

Just to clear the air on how “injured” people think the Hawks are and their “lack of cohesion.”  They’ve endured the 4th least missed games due to injury:

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/injured-reserve/cumulative-team/

heat, Grizz, and Cavs fans looking at y’all side-eyed.

I think the bigger stat is cashed earned...  It's not how many, but who... The Cavs got 154 missed gms but only 12 Million.  That's 154 scrubbs.

[benhillboy]

13 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I think the bigger stat is cashed earned...  It's not how many, but who... The Cavs got 154 missed gms but only 12 Million.  That's 154 scrubbs.

Even by that metric Hawks are league average.  Average the two and the Hawks are bottom third; there just isn’t anything to complain about relative to the rest of the league.

Edited January 13, 2023 by benhillboy

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, benhillboy said:

Even by that metric Hawks are league average.  Split the difference between the two and there just isn’t anything to complain about relative to the rest of the league.

If it were all about the numbers sure.

But it's not all about the numbers.  You can't quantify what that player means to that team.  Had we had Clint for the games he missed, we'd have at least 5 more wins. 

Those are empty stat BHB...   I tried to find for you the most meaningful part but that's not meaningful enough. 

 

[benhillboy]

31 minutes ago, Diesel said:

If it were all about the numbers sure.

But it's not all about the numbers.  You can't quantify what that player means to that team.  Had we had Clint for the games he missed, we'd have at least 5 more wins. 

Those are empty stat BHB...   I tried to find for you the most meaningful part but that's not meaningful enough. 

 

I shouldn’t respond to you D but I’ll indulge you this time.

All of a sudden Clint is a world beater you can retroactively assign wins to because of his presence?  Bunnie-missing, no-shot having, non-existent playmaking Clint?  You realize how many times backup squads have beaten healthy ones this year?  You know how many teams replicate Clint’s defensive  and lob impact with young players at a fraction of his salary?

”Empty stats” wtf?!  These people at this well-respected outlet tracking this sh*t for their health?  Luxury taxes and contract lengths “empty stats” too huh?

Edited January 13, 2023 by benhillboy

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, benhillboy said:

I shouldn’t respond to you D but I’ll indulge you this time.

All of a sudden Clint is a world beater you can retroactively assign wins to because of his presence?  Bunnie-missing, no-shot having, non-existent playmaking Clint?  You realize how many times backup squads have beaten healthy ones this year?  You know how many teams replicate Clint’s defensive  and lob impact with young players at a fraction of his salary?

”Empty stats” wtf?!  These people at this well-respected outlet tracking this sh*t for their health?  Luxury taxes and contract lengths “empty stats” too huh?

You endulge me because you know I'm right. 

What does Steph Curry mean to GS?  If Steph is the only person that misses PT with GS...  He'll miss say 25 games.   Cleveland has 154 to GS's 25....  who is more effected?  That's because the numbers.. regardless of how you put them in can't quantify what that player means to that team.

I used Clint as an example.. to which you still haven't negated.. his rebounding alone would have helped us win 5 games.    But think about it.. Bogi, Trae, DJM, Collins, Hunter has all missed games.  

IN the stat it equals 1 game... but what does it mean on the court??  You can't say... the stat can't quantify... 

Keep trying to be dismissive..  I'll take that as a sign that you're dead wrong.

 

 

[Sothron]

No one is going to convince me that losing bench players for longer means as much as losing your best starters for shorter games. Just having Bogi the first two months of the season would have won us a few games. Capela from Dec to now? C'mon. There's no way you can tell me we don't have at least five to 10 more wins if Bogi and Capela hadn't missed games or at most a couple.

[Atlantaholic]

9 minutes ago, Sothron said:

No one is going to convince me that losing bench players for longer means as much as losing your best starters for shorter games. Just having Bogi the first two months of the season would have won us a few games. Capela from Dec to now? C'mon. There's no way you can tell me we don't have at least five to 10 more wins if Bogi and Capela hadn't missed games or at most a couple.

10 wins is a stretch we probably could have 5 more wins with a reasonably healthy Bogi and Cap. But we aren't the only East team with significant injuries.  how many more wins do Bucks have with a healthy Middleton all year + Jrue not missing 10 games and playing off the bench less than 100% the other two? How many more wins does Philly have if Embiid doesn't miss 12 games, Harden doesn't miss 16 games, and Maxey doesn't miss 20? How many more wins do Nets have if Kyrie and Ben don't miss 11 games and TJ Warren and Seth Curry don't miss 20 + games? Miami without Butler missing 13 games and Herro another 9? Toronto had Siakam miss most of November and they are very dependant on him for offense. Charlotte, Detroit Orlando at the bottom of the standings all hammered by big significant injuries. 

 

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

10 wins is a stretch we probably could have 5 more wins with a reasonably healthy Bogi and Cap. But we aren't the only East team with significant injuries.  how many more wins do Bucks have with a healthy Middleton all year + Jrue not missing 10 games and playing off the bench less than 100% the other two? How many more wins does Philly have if Embiid doesn't miss 12 games, Harden doesn't miss 16 games, and Maxey doesn't miss 20? How many more wins do Nets have if Kyrie and Ben don't miss 11 games and TJ Warren and Seth Curry don't miss 20 + games? Miami without Butler missing 13 games and Herro another 9? Toronto had Siakam miss most of November and they are very dependant on him for offense. Charlotte, Detroit Orlando at the bottom of the standings all hammered by big significant injuries. 

 

That's the key word...  Significant injuries.

Your example with the Bucks is a good one.. but they have learned to play without Middleton.   Once he comes back, they are the best team in the league and everybody knows that. 

Our problem is depth.   We don't have the depth to cope with significant injuries.   So while some run around saying...   ah other teams have injured players too...  That's true but a lot of other teams have the depth to deal with their injured players...   For instance.. I don't know if the Pels care if Zion plays in the Reg season or not.    AND  Memphis played all last year and was better when Ja was out. 

But for us.. look at our depth.   We have JJ, AJ, OO all playing more minutes than they have ever seen.  AJ is a rook.   There's a difference when we have to call on OO and Boston can call on Al Freaking Horford.

 

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

10 wins is a stretch we probably could have 5 more wins with a reasonably healthy Bogi and Cap.

I would say 10 easy.   We can sit up and count all the games that were tight... like the last game we played...  we were outrebounded 62 to 40 something.   They had 16 more rebounds than us and 14 Offensive rebounds.   That doesn't happen if Clint plays.   There have been games that it was a layup drill for the other team.  That doesn't happen if Clint plays.   Secondly, we struggled early on without Bogi's three point shooting.   We are now shooting 33.2% from three as a team.   Bogi is shooting 38% from three.   For the month of Dec, he was 40.4% in 13 games.  That would have helped.

 

 

 

[macdaddy]

Last year we had legit excuses about covid and injuries affecting our overall record.  I don't buy it this year.   We've been plenty healthy to be better than this.  Hell Bucks are missing their second best player.  

What we're seeing is a average team with a terrible bench and zero chemistry.  I'm not making any excuses for them this year. 

[Gray Mule]

I continue to harp about our lack of another big man and hope we can trade for Mark Williams.  When we have Capels on the bench, unable to play, Hawks lose a lot of rebounding.  This leads to second chances for our opponent.  Given enough chances, sooner or later a shot will go.

Capela is our biggest big player.  Read our comments before the season opened.  Many said that Capela would be high in the league standings in rebounds.  This has not changed.  Missing Capela has been a terrible blow to the Hawks.

On the off-season, Atlanta lost more than they gained.  We gained new players and lost veteran players.  Hawks did add an excellent draft pick.  Nate has been forced to play him and Jalen Johnson, both doing well.  This tell us how much we lost in the off-season.

To me, a great example of Nate's coaching happened in our last game.  Hawk starters, who all had a (-) for the game, were on the bench and all the bench had a (+) by their name.  Momentum had brought Atlanta from 23 down to only 1 behind with 3 minutes remaining.  Nate called time out, killing momentum.  He removed all bench players and put the 5 starters back in the game.  They had the ball and hit a shot for their first and only lead of the game.  Opponent then went on a big run of 10 to close out the game with a big win.

[macdaddy]

I can't see any reason Charlotte would trade Mark Williams to us though. 

[Gray Mule]

5 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I can't see any reason Charlotte would trade Mark Williams to us though. 

I can't either.  But, you never know.  Wouldn't cost anything to ask, "What would you take for MW?"  

[shakes]

this is the kind of thread that exposes the true Homers of the board.    Not even 10 replies in and @Diesel's already twisted himself into a pretzel.

[yungsta]

It seems like every year when the hawks disappoint, we are quick to blame injuries.

 

[Diesel]

40 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Last year we had legit excuses about covid and injuries affecting our overall record.  I don't buy it this year.   We've been plenty healthy to be better than this.  Hell Bucks are missing their second best player.  

What we're seeing is a average team with a terrible bench and zero chemistry.  I'm not making any excuses for them this year. 

This is the point.   You know why the Bucks can miss middleton...  They have Grayson Allen  who put up the same numbers that Middleton would have.  Middleton played 7 games.   Scored 11.1 points per and shot 26.8% from three.   Allen is scoring 10.2 ppg and shoots 38.7% from three.   They have the depth to replace him.   Clint is giving up 12/12 for the year.   OO is good but he's not going to get us 12/12.  And nobody is going to make that up. 

Now as far as "legit excuses"....  Covid is not more legit than a calf strain or a knee injury.  Go tell KD that his injury is not legit. 

 

Rk		Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	eFG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS/G
1	Giannis Antetokounmpo	28	35	35	33.7	10.9	20.8	.524	0.7	2.9	.245	10.2	17.9	.569	.541	8.5	12.9	.653	2.3	9.7	11.9	5.3	0.8	0.9	4.0	3.5	31.0
2	Jrue Holiday	32	31	29	32.3	6.8	15.0	.453	2.3	6.1	.381	4.5	8.9	.502	.530	2.6	2.9	.890	1.2	3.8	5.0	7.2	1.4	0.4	3.2	1.9	18.5
3	Brook Lopez	34	41	41	30.4	5.5	11.0	.499	2.0	5.0	.386	3.5	6.0	.594	.588	1.5	2.0	.778	2.1	4.4	6.5	1.2	0.6	2.5	1.4	2.4	14.5
4	Grayson Allen	27	38	36	27.1	3.3	7.6	.436	1.8	4.6	.387	1.5	3.0	.509	.552	1.8	2.0	.909	0.9	2.6	3.6	2.6	0.7	0.2	1.1	1.4	10.2
5	Bobby Portis	27	42	10	26.4	5.9	11.8	.499	1.1	3.5	.320	4.8	8.3	.574	.546	1.1	1.4	.793	2.6	7.5	10.0	1.8	0.4	0.3	1.2	1.7	14.0
6	Jevon Carter	27	42	30	25.1	2.8	7.0	.400	1.5	3.9	.383	1.3	3.2	.421	.505	0.5	0.6	.840	0.5	2.3	2.9	2.9	1.2	0.5	1.3	2.1	7.6
7	Khris Middleton	31	7	7	24.4	3.6	11.0	.325	1.6	5.9	.268	2.0	5.1	.389	.396	2.4	2.7	.895	0.1	2.4	2.6	4.4	0.6	0.1	1.6	2.6	11.1
8	Pat Connaughton	30	26	10	22.9	2.7	7.6	.355	1.8	5.8	.309	0.9	1.7	.511	.475	0.5	0.8	.600	0.7	3.3	3.9	1.0	0.5	0.1	0.6	1.1	7.7
9	George Hill	36	31	0	19.8	1.7	3.8	.437	0.6	2.1	.308	1.0	1.7	.593	.521	1.0	1.4	.727	0.4	1.7	2.1	2.6	0.5	0.1	0.9	1.2	5.0
10	Joe Ingles	35	11	0	19.8	2.2	6.4	.343	1.6	5.3	.310	0.5	1.1	.500	.471	0.3	0.3	1.000	0.5	1.4	1.8	3.6	0.4	0.1	1.9	1.4	6.3
11	Jordan Nwora	24	30	3	16.3	2.1	5.5	.384	1.1	2.8	.388	1.0	2.6	.380	.485	1.0	1.2	.857	0.7	2.4	3.1	1.0	0.3	0.1	1.0	0.8	6.3
12	MarJon Beauchamp	22	31	9	15.7	2.3	5.6	.405	1.1	3.3	.333	1.2	2.3	.507	.503	0.6	0.8	.720	1.0	1.6	2.6	0.7	0.5	0.1	1.0	1.7	6.2
13	Wesley Matthews	36	26	0	14.8	0.9	2.9	.320	0.7	2.3	.311	0.2	0.5	.357	.447	0.3	0.4	.900	0.7	0.9	1.6	0.6	0.5	0.2	0.4	1.5	2.9
14	Serge Ibaka	33	16	0	11.6	1.6	3.4	.481	0.4	1.1	.333	1.3	2.3	.556	.537	0.5	0.8	.615	0.9	1.8	2.8	0.3	0.1	0.4	0.7	1.4	4.1
15	A.J. Green	23	19	0	9.2	1.7	3.4	.492	1.2	2.8	.426	0.5	0.6	.818	.669	0.2	0.2	1.000	0.2	1.0	1.2	0.4	0.2	0.0	0.2	1.1	4.8
16	Sandro Mamukelashvili	23	18	0	8.9	0.7	2.3	.317	0.3	1.2	.227	0.4	1.1	.421	.378	0.4	0.7	.583	0.7	1.8	2.4	0.8	0.1	0.2	0.3	0.7	2.1
17	Thanasis Antetokounmpo	30	19	0	4.4	0.2	0.7	.214	0.0	0.2	.000	0.2	0.5	.300	.214	0.2	0.3	.500	0.3	0.6	0.9	0.2	0.1	0.2	0.4	0.4	0

[Diesel]

29 minutes ago, shakes said:

this is the kind of thread that exposes the true Homers of the board.    Not even 10 replies in and @Diesel's already twisted himself into a pretzel.

So because we're not pessimistic we're homers??  Yeah.. I'm a homer... because 

1.  I don't believe we've seen our team at it's full potential. 

2.   I do believe that injuries has played a major role in where we are right now (recordwise). 

 

  I don't like some coaching decisions but you have to admit that we lack depth.  I think we have this chicken little fanbase that are always crying about the sky is falling.   You can't evaluate a team that has parts missing.   Right now, Golden State is 20 and 21.  Do you think that they are a below .500 team?   You wouldn't dare evaluate them knowing that they will get Curry back...  Yet every chicken little here is quick to evaluate the Hawks knowing that we have significant injuries too. 

 

 

[macdaddy]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Now as far as "legit excuses"....  Covid is not more legit than a calf strain or a knee injury.  Go tell KD that his injury is not legit. 

You're comparing one player's calf strain to the bulk of the team missing 3-4 weeks of the season and resorting to starting gleaguers on a 10 day?

[sturt]

39 minutes ago, shakes said:

true Homers

Interesting term.

So, this is your life... avoiding being called a "true homer?"

Reminds me of my mom who spends her life avoiding being called a liberal, or my brother who spends his life avoiding being called a conservative.

Me? I'm a God-honest conservative, but it's not the worst thing in the world to prioritize critical thinking above being called a name... that is, unless I actually consider the person doing the name calling someone I should actually hold in some special regard... and most people that I hold in special regard just don't do the disparaging name calling thing. They don't appear to see any value in that. They may use some descriptive terms, but they're not said for their insult gravity, as-if to "score points."

Now, there are times when a person might be too kind, too sympathetic to one side or the other, but there also are times when a person might be too cynical, too contrarian to one side or the other.

How does one know which is which? We don't.

Too sympathetic or too cynical is a subjective conclusion, not an objective one. Futile and pointless to talk in terms of that.

Rather, substantive conversation is substantive conversation... facts, lines of logic... supporting conclusions with substance. To the degree I disregard someone's arguments, it should be about disagreement with the substance they're trying to use to support their conclusion... not actually so much the conclusion itself. Conclusions aren't wrong just because they come from someone with a pattern of having arrived at similar conclusions. Conclusions are wrong, if they're wrong, because of faulty substance... because of lack of information intake, or lines of reason that have gaps.

Just sayin.

And not "just sayin" just to poke you, my friend. You raise some good points sometimes, just as Diesel does, just as virtually everyone here does. Could be wrong, but I've just come to sense in you such a intense resistance to arguing with yourself the other side(s). The running fury of yours about my dedication to a temporary 22-23 Hawks agnosticism, yes, serves as an example. Your arguments against never actually took on the substance (in a few words, the innate need to have time to develop chemistry) that supported my conclusion, but rather cast aspersions at how the substance translated into a conclusion (the 25 game pledge). Granted, I used the conclusion as a lever to prompt people to think... the header focused on the conclusion... but the point, once you got beyond the header was to prompt people to think... critically.... so, it was to think about how that substance (that no one ever took issue with) translated to their own conclusions.

 

I'm not real happy with our friend Diesel of-late... he made a very shallow accusation recently, and the receipts made clear he was off-base... and/but he didn't back down publicly as he should have, nor did he make amends. (His life, his choices, oh well.)

But Diesel does try to offer substance for his conclusions, and pretty consistently. The "homer" name calling is misplaced, imo.

 

And in my best Forrest....