What has the Joe Johnson trade netted us?

[Sothron]

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Smitty was about eighteen times better on defense than Johnson and had better handles.

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Wrong and wrong.

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Right and right. Two people can play this game!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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i agree....13-26...your right, basically not a whole lot....

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...yet.

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so far this is the closest anyone has come to answering the question.

I've seen plenty of name calling and a little excuse making.

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To be honest teke, without JJ, we may very well be a 4 - 33 team, instead of a 13 - 26 team. And if our team were somewhat healthy and not missing weeks and months at a time, this would still be a .500 ballclub at the very least.

It's easy to criticize JJ. Memphis fans and media are doing the same with Pau Gasol. And you see how horrible the Griz were without him in the lineup. They weren't even competitive on most nights.

Most star players that don't have any help . . or if their help is hurt . . won't be able to get the job done by themselves.

But to answer your question.

- we got rid of a nice young player and maybe a few draft picks that would've taken a few years to develop, for a top 20 all-star caliber player in the league who I think hasn't even reached his prime yet.

- a guy that this franchise can depend on for at least the next 3 years. I say that because if we don't turn this thing around, I don't see JJ staying here when his contract is up.

- the best player this franchise has had since Dominique Wilkins

- one of the most versatile big guards/small forwards in the league.

- a high percentage perimeter shooter. That's almost an endangered species in today's NBA. When you look at the guards who score 15 points or more, JJ ranks #5 in FG%.

LOL @ what has he given us. The question you should be asking is . . what is everybody else giving us?

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hang on grasshopper. give the thread some time to play itself out.

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Well, you started the thread. It's like the Philly fans, who have grown tired of Iverson and asked themselves what did he really do for them. LOL . . AI had no help in Philly. And when he did have help, they won. This year, the Sixers were 5 - 12 with AI in the lineup. They're 7 - 18 without him. Bottom line is that the team still needs talent, whether they have a legit superstar ( AI ) or a legit PG ( Miller ) running the show.

I'd hate to see the state of this franchise, if we didn't have JJ. Good lord, we'd have Diaw and even MORE young players on this team, trying to find their way. At least JJ is a very solid building block to get something done.

The injuries have really put a damper on this season. LOL . . but in the East, there's still hope . . at least until early March.

[Nicholasp27]

he's DEF better than mookieand he's still young; i see him surpassing smitty overall for sure, unless injuries get to him or something else unforeseen happenswe'll see if he has more of an impact than deke or not in a few years...i think he will surprise you...he hasn't peaked yet

[deester11]

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I would take a healthy Smitty in his prime over similiar Johnson any day of the week. Twice on Sunday.

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Smitty had a great game overall....but better than JJ? I'd venture to say that JJ's game dwarfs Smitty's. Smitty had to be respected, but on this team defenses gear towards stopping JJ and he still gets his. There is no way Smitty compares to JJ (Just my humble opine)

[TroyMcClure]

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I would take a healthy Smitty in his prime over similiar Johnson any day of the week. Twice on Sunday.

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Agreed. Maybe the winning clouds me. I don't know. Smitty was a superior passer and defender. The shooting is about even. Only from the outside. Joe has virtually no post game. Which used to be a big part of this game. He dribbles in and shoots the floater a lot. Smitty would post you up. I prefer the latter.

No one get this wrong. I love Joe. He could have certainly played with those guys. I just think he has a lot of room to grow. He turns it over too much and is not the kind of vocal leader that I had hoped he would grow into.

Scoring points in this new WNBA isn't that tough. Really never has been for losing teams. You can score a whole bunch of garbage points when the other team knows their lead is insurmountable.

I want a little more leadership from Joe and a lot more vocalization.

To really answer the original post: He is the one bright spot on your mind when thinking about the organization. Joe gives us a chance if the ownership mess is resolved this decade. Josh Smith is also. More of an enigma though.

Deke was and is a game changer in a Hall of Fame way. One of the best defenders to ever walk on an NBA court. We should all respect Smitty, Mookie, Deke, Ty, and the whole old gang a lot more than most of us do.

To those of you who are bashing this thread: STOP

He's asking a question. Use your mind. If you really want to be blinded by hating, hate on ASG, BK, Woody, and maybe Belkin. In that order.

[Lascar78]

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Smitty was a superior passer and defender.

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How so? If Smitty is such a great passer, why did Joe average almost 50% more assists than Smitty did in his best season? Smitty could dump it to much better scorers and shooters. And many players have stated that the Joe is so much more physical than he seems and that he really wears you down. I honestly think Joe is better at both right now than Smitty ever was.Also Joe doesn't get garbage points. He gets double teams all night.

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Maybe the winning clouds me.

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I believe this is correct. That, and a better team around him that ends up making him look better.

[gsuteke]

First of all I'd like to point out this is merely my personal opinion. If you feel differently then good for you. One of us will be wrong if that be the case. I personally hope that person is me.The deal Billy Knight agreed to for Joe Johnson will define his legacy as GM of the Atlanta Hawks.April 2 2003 Billy Knight becomes GM June 26 2003 Billy Knight selects Boris Diaw at #21 in the first round. Team needs: PG, SF, PF, SG, CJune 24 2004 Billy Knight selects Josh Childress at #6 and Josh Smith at #17. Team needs: PG, PF, SG, CPay attention here because this is where it begins to unravel.July 15 2004 Billy Knight trades free agent Stephen Jackson for up and coming star Al Harrington. Team needs: PG, PF, SG, CJune 2005 Billy Knight drafts Marvin Williams at #2. Billy has his sights set on Joe Johnson to be his next PG, as a result he passes on 3 promising PG prospects opting instead to add another SF many see as BPA to the roster. Team needs: PG, PF, SG, CAugust 19 2005 Joe Johnson trade is completed. Billy Knight uses Joe Johnson’s versatility as a selling point on trading 2 first round picks and the player he drafted in the 2003 first round for the rising star. His vision is to have Joe Johnson run the Hawks offense as their PG. Team needs: PG, PF, CJune 2006 Billy Knight drafts Shelden Williams at #5. The only player on the board at or around this position that fits a need is Lamarcus Aldridge who is selected #2. No PG prospect warrants a selection this high. Subsequently the 2nd of 3 first round picks the Hawks traded for Johnson the prior year is used to draft Rajon Rondo. The following pick is used to draft Marcus Williams, both PGs that presented exceptional value at #21 and #22 respectively. Team needs: PG, CJuly 12 2006 Billy Knight signs Speedy Claxton, a backup PG from New Orleans. Claxton had a bit of an injury history missing an average of 29 games a season during his first 6 seasons in the league. Unfortunately after a freak broken hand early in the season Claxton’s knees begin to give him trouble again. Team needs: PG, CAugust 22 2006 Al Harrington traded back to Indy after winning just 39 games in 2 seasons. Unfortunately the Hawks won just enough games that 2nd year to land the 5th pick in the previously mentioned draft. In return the Hawks receive a 1st round pick from Indiana top 10 protected but no players in return. Team needs: PG, CJanuary 24 2007 The Hawks have the 4th worst record in the NBA. If the Hawks do not get a top 3 pick they are required to consummate the Johnson trade with their 2007 first round selection. The 2007 NBA draft projects 6 centers to be picked in the top 10.October 2007 The Hawks begin the 2007-2008 season. Team needs: PG, CKnight has had quite an unfortunate string of bad breaks in his search for a Center to complete the team he sought out to build in 2003. As of right now he is almost 4 years into the process. He has a chance to get that final elusive piece this summer. Unfortunately it's time to repay the loan Pheonix gave him 2 years ago. In the end Billy will take the fall for 3 straight years in the basement.Joe Johnson is better than Rondo, Diaw, and Spencer Hawes combined. In the end though the team Billy built still has gaping holes 4 years later. Unfortunately Billy Knight has backed himself into a corner and no longer has the draft capitol to pull himself out of the quick sand. The Joe Johnson trade ultimately got us a great player we'll enjoy watching for years to come, but also got rid of the man many of us view as the proverbial devil.

[hawkman]

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Smitty was a superior passer and defender.

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How so? If Smitty is such a great passer, why did Joe average almost 50% more assists than Smitty did in his best season? Smitty could dump it to much better scorers and shooters. And many players have stated that the Joe is so much more physical than he seems and that he really wears you down. I honestly think Joe is better at both right now than Smitty ever was.Also Joe doesn't get garbage points. He gets double teams all night.

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Maybe the winning clouds me.

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I believe this is correct. That, and a better team around him that ends up making him look better.

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Smitty's averages were on a WINNING team. Maybe that's what makes him the better player. Ricky Davis averaged 23 points and 5 assists on a terrible Cleveland team before the arrival of Lebron. Does that make him a better player than Smitty or the equivalent of JJ this season? Hmmmmmmmmmm. Don't get me wrong JJ is a great player and a great piece to build around, but he has to do it on a WINNING team to be considered better than the other players mentioned above. If he can't do that, then he's just another good player racking up huge numbers on a bad team. It's not his fault, that's just the way it works.

[Sothron]

I also think its only fair to point out how much better the NBA was in Smitty's years, esp. with how insane defenses were. There's honestly no comparison between the wide open scoring of this NBA era and the defense dominated era of Smitty.

[AHF]

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August 19 2005 Joe Johnson trade is completed. Billy Knight uses Joe Johnson’s versatility as a selling point on trading 2 first round picks and the player he drafted in the 2003 first round for the rising star. His vision is to have Joe Johnson run the Hawks offense as their PG. Team needs: PG, PF, C

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I know JJ was trumpeted as a PG when he signed, but remember that we also went after Ray Allen before JJ if I recall (JJ wasn't our first target). I don't think JJ was the reason we passed on a PG. I think BK just liked Marvin. Think about it this way, if BK was looking at Marvin and Paul and had Paul rated higher, why not take him? If you do, you play a backcourt of Paul and JJ and you have Josh Smith, Childress and Harrington for your forward positions. If you draft Marvin you aren't alleviating positional redundancy. Therefore, I think the only logical conclusion is that BK preferred Marvin.

[gsuteke]

almost everyone in the business did prefer Marvin all things equal.

[exodus]

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There's honestly no comparison between the wide open scoring of this NBA era and the defense dominated era of Smitty.

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There is no comparison between the double teams JJ faces and the defense Smith faced. There is no comparison between the percentages Smith shot and what JJ is shooting now.

[hawkman]

Once again, the only thing that makes any comparison between Smitty and JJ valid is the fact that Smitty did his thing on a winning team. JJ is doing his thing on losing team as THE FIRST offensive option. Heck, Stephen Jackson did the same thing when he was here. I had to throw in a more "recent" Hawks reference so that everyone can get the gist of what I'm saying here. Take from that what you will but it is a well known fact.

[Popeye]

Jackson never averaged 25 ppg and wasn't doubled and tripled teamed like JJ is.

[BusBoyIsBack]

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i'm not saying it is Joe's fault we have 13 wins right now. there is a larger picture here. try to act like a sponge.this question isn't just being asked to Ex, it's being asked to everybody.Just what has the Joe Johnson trade netted us? Fact: 13-26 recordplease feel free to share your opinions.

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Fact that's how many wins we got all year the year before him.Despite our terrible start after being plagued with injuries we are only 5.5 games out of the playoffs. Without JJ we would be 20 games under.With a healthy team we are more than capable of making a run. Sure we let those two games vs the Bobcats get away from us but we can make up for that if we can defend the home court against Toronot, Golden State, and Philly and steal one of two from Orlando.

[hawkman]

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Jackson never averaged 25 ppg and wasn't doubled and tripled teamed like JJ is.

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That's besides the point though. No need to get sidetracked by any details here. I was emphasizing the fact that JJ is playing great, but he's playing great on a bad team. It's a lot easier for good players to shine on bad teams due to the abundance of shot attempts and minutes. It's always been that way.

[Diesel]

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herefore, I think the only logical conclusion is that BK preferred Marvin.

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And that will be his legacy, not the JJ trade. The JJ trade is actually a feather in his cap. However, the Marvin draft choice is a rock through his front door.Marvin is redundant.The #2 pick in the draft was the result of much tanking.After picking a redundant player like Marvin, we still ended up trading a young talented player for a pick in order to "make room" for Marvin.The other logical conclusion that you can come to is this:BK never expected JSmoove to develop.Sure he liked the fact that JSmoove was a dunk champion, a shot blocker and a fan favorite. However, BK knew that the only place where he could play Marvin was in Smoove's position. Coming out of their rookie year, Smoove and Chillz stole the show down the stretch.Why not pick up a PG??Especially when, Paul had a tremendous workout (by all accounts) and Marvin's workout was sad (by all accounts)!!!This also tell those of you who didn't get the memo that Shelden hosted a private workout for the Hawks after the NCAA tourney.. that BK doesn't really care about workouts.

[gsuteke]

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herefore, I think the only logical conclusion is that BK preferred Marvin.

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And that will be his legacy, not the JJ trade. The JJ trade is actually a feather in his cap. However, the Marvin draft choice is a rock through his front door.Marvin is redundant.The #2 pick in the draft was the result of much tanking.After picking a redundant player like Marvin, we still ended up trading a young talented player for a pick in order to "make room" for Marvin.The other logical conclusion that you can come to is this:BK never expected JSmoove to develop.Sure he liked the fact that JSmoove was a dunk champion, a shot blocker and a fan favorite. However, BK knew that the only place where he could play Marvin was in Smoove's position. Coming out of their rookie year, Smoove and Chillz stole the show down the stretch.Why not pick up a PG??Especially when, Paul had a tremendous workout (by all accounts) and Marvin's workout was sad (by all accounts)!!!This also tell those of you who didn't get the memo that Shelden hosted a private workout for the Hawks after the NCAA tourney.. that BK doesn't really care about workouts.

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Billy took the BPA. anyone who walks that Paul walk is preaching revisionist history.to use your own words against you "Joe has been babysitting a bunch of kids." This was Billy's chance to finally grab a center. why trade for a "superstar" in the making when you have no complimentary pieces and you are so far away from contending?se la vie.before you respond keep in mind not only the original question but more importantly the answer. direct your response at Billy Knight.

[Diesel]

NO. Billy choose the best HYPED player available. There was nothing in Marvin's resume' that was better than Paul's or Deron's. Nothing. That's no hindsight. That's from somebody who watched Paul become ROY in his rookie season and continue to dominate at WFU his sophomore year. That's from watching Deron take his team to a 27-1 record and play dominantly.What did Marvin do? Come off the bench... Honestly, did Marvin put up better #'s than Jawad. When you watched the games, did Marvin ever look better than Jawad? The answer is no. Jawad played against everybody's first team and Marvin came in and made good tip ins and hit wide open shots against tired teams. There was nothing that great about Marvin's game. He was an example of how good the Hype Machine can really be.Whereas you have Paul who was Wake Forest.You had Deron who drove the Ill team...Neither of those team could have existed in the fashion that they did without Paul and Deron.Then when the workouts came and Marvin only had 2 workouts and he was out of shape for both of them... And they said that Paulhad a monster workout for the Hawks... IT Makes no sense.

[TroyMcClure]

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JJ is the focus of the opposing defense much more than Smitty ever was yet still shoots much better.

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We're getting into a "new era", "old era" type of thing here. The game is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much softer now. 10 years ago MEN played in the league.

Also, It's hard for opposing defenses to anticipate our plan. We don't have one! It's hard to defend streetball sometimes.

Joe is very good. How about he win a few games before we all say he's the best since 'Nique.

I would also venture to say anyone who went up against Mookie, did not want to. He was one of the most impressive on ball defenders I've ever seen. He got his steals by stealing. Not by having a loose ball bounce your way(Speedy). He could score a little too. Good distributor as well.

Deke was far and awy better than J.J. He is one of the top two or 3 defensive bigs ever. EVER! He's in the top 15 of big men ALL-TIME! Show me 25 bigs better than Deke and I'll show you about 10 of them that couldn't get a shot off on him. Deke was a game changer.

Anyone think Jordan would get a technical taunting Joe?(remember the Jordan finger wag after finally dunking on Deke?) I love Joe but he is no King of the Mountain.