Marvin = Capable of more

[Diesel]

Y do we keep bringing up this assist % crap?

The whole purpose of assist% is to point out guys who can create for themselves or guys who need somebody else to create for them.

Marvin's %assisted = 68%.

Butler's %assisted = 41%.

Now think about that. You have already stated that the Hawks as a whole have terrible ball movement and passing. Yet, Marvin scores 68% of his points when somebody passes him the ball. Again, the picture painted is that Marvin just goes down to the three point line and waits until Joe or Bibby is doubled and the ball is swung his way. Then when he is wide open, he takes the shot or drives.

This means that Marvin doesn't produce for himself.. but instead, he's a benefactor of the better offensive players we have.

[Admin]

The whole purpose of assist% is to point out guys who can create for themselves or guys who need somebody else to create for them.

Marvin's %assisted = 68%.

Butler's %assisted = 41%.

Now think about that. You have already stated that the Hawks as a whole have terrible ball movement and passing. Yet, Marvin scores 68% of his points when somebody passes him the ball. Again, the picture painted is that Marvin just goes down to the three point line and waits until Joe or Bibby is doubled and the ball is swung his way. Then when he is wide open, he takes the shot or drives.

This means that Marvin doesn't produce for himself.. but instead, he's a benefactor of the better offensive players we have.

You are confused here Diesel. Just because a player has a high percentage of baskets that are assisted does not mean that he NEEDS them to be assisted, it simply means that they ARE assisted.

And just so I understand you correctly, you are criticizing Marvin for playing the role that he is asked to play in the Hawks offense and also for being the beneficiary of having better players around him, right?

[exodus]

The whole purpose of assist% is to point out guys who can create for themselves or guys who need somebody else to create for them.

Marvin's %assisted = 68%.

Butler's %assisted = 41%.

Now think about that. You have already stated that the Hawks as a whole have terrible ball movement and passing. Yet, Marvin scores 68% of his points when somebody passes him the ball. Again, the picture painted is that Marvin just goes down to the three point line and waits until Joe or Bibby is doubled and the ball is swung his way. Then when he is wide open, he takes the shot or drives.

This means that Marvin doesn't produce for himself.. but instead, he's a benefactor of the better offensive players we have.

HOLY CHANGE OF SUBJECT BATMAN!!

What does a 20 ppg All-Star have to do with this thread?

And how exactly is the 3% assisted difference between Marvin and Smith so significant that you condemn Marvin but give Smith a pass?

So are you planning on ever actually addressing the topic of the thread or are you going to keep changing the subject. I sure don't remember Butler or assisted fg% being mentioned in the original post of the thread.

[MaceCase]

Care to address my all jumpshooters have a high assist% argument since you are swicthing subjects D? Or are you just gonna strap on your tap shoes tighter and dance around it?

[Diesel]

You are confused here Diesel. Just because a player has a high percentage of baskets that are assisted does not mean that he NEEDS them to be assisted, it simply means that they ARE assisted.

And just so I understand you correctly, you are criticizing Marvin for playing the role that he is asked to play in the Hawks offense and also for being the beneficiary of having better players around him, right?

Again I ask.. If we had Caron Butler or Paul Pierce on this team.. do you think that they would be 4th options? Do you think that they would fail into the same "ROLE" that Marvin does?

I think you assume that Marvin is ASKED to play that role.

[Diesel]

Care to address my all jumpshooters have a high assist% argument since you are swicthing subjects D? Or are you just gonna strap on your tap shoes tighter and dance around it?

It's not a subject change whatsoever. The title is Marvin = Capable of more. There's a lot of excuse making saying that the only reason that Marvin doesn't do more is because he has been made to play a certain role or it's the system. I counter that argument by saying if it's the system, then anybody that comes in and plays Sf should fall victim to the same system?

I brought up Butler and Pierce... but really all we have to do is check out Joe Last year. Last year he played Sf.. and he did not play like Marvin plays? Neither did Flip when he was on the floor with Joe and Bibby.

You guys are blaming Marvin's lack of aggression on Woody or on the rest of the team... when in actuallity... Marvin's lack of aggression is Marvin's fault.

[AHF]

Again I ask.. If we had Caron Butler or Paul Pierce on this team.. do you think that they would be 4th options? Do you think that they would fail into the same "ROLE" that Marvin does?

I think you assume that Marvin is ASKED to play that role.

No. Both Caron and Pierce are veteran All-Stars. They would not be 4th options here or be asked to do the same things that Marvin is. They are both in or passing their prime and will earn 8 figures next season (10M and 20M, respectively). Marvin isn't as good a scorer as either of those guys at this point.

I do think, however, that it is obvious that Marvin is doing exactly what he is told by Woodson on offense. With Smoove's 3pt shooting we at least have signs from Woody that this frustrates him. There has been nothing but praise and acceptance from Woodson regarding Marvin's role on offense.

Do I think Marvin is being maximized in this role? No.

Do I think he is doing what he is asked? Definitely. He is told to do two things: hit open shots and take the ball to the rim. When JJ goes out, he is asked to do more but otherwise he and Horford are given limited roles on this offense and are afterthoughts in terms of shot distribution.

[hawksrule9]

Again I ask.. If we had Caron Butler or Paul Pierce on this team.. do you think that they would be 4th options? Do you think that they would fail into the same "ROLE" that Marvin does?

I think you assume that Marvin is ASKED to play that role.

I think Marvin knows he is being asked to be a 3rd or 4th option. He knows he is not the scorer that Joe Johnson or Mike Bibby are being asked of. He knows he is not going to be asked to be the explosive scorer that Josh Smith can create. He has a great jump shot that is really clutch when Joe is being doubled or they are swinging the ball around the top.

He is a solid tool in this starting lineup. Now that he is a threat behind the 3 point line, he makes his mark on this team as an option to give the ball to and have faith that he connects with a jumper when you need it. His drive to the rim from the side is strong and his defense isn't bad. As long as he is healthy is does his job very well.

[Diesel]

No. Both Caron and Pierce are veteran All-Stars. They would not be 4th options here or be asked to do the same things that Marvin is. They are both in or passing their prime and will earn 8 figures next season (10M and 20M, respectively). Marvin isn't as good a scorer as either of those guys at this point.

I do think, however, that it is obvious that Marvin is doing exactly what he is told by Woodson on offense. With Smoove's 3pt shooting we at least have signs from Woody that this frustrates him. There has been nothing but praise and acceptance from Woodson regarding Marvin's role on offense.

Do I think Marvin is being maximized in this role? No.

Do I think he is doing what he is asked? Definitely. He is told to do two things: hit open shots and take the ball to the rim. When JJ goes out, he is asked to do more but otherwise he and Horford are given limited roles on this offense and are afterthoughts in terms of shot distribution.

There's a whole lot of assumption in your statements AHF. For one, Marvin's aggressiveness REGRESSED from last year to this year. Think about that. Marvin was our highest draft pick ever. We were awaiting a break out year. He has shown "Flashes" of being able to break out. Then all of the sudden, you think Woody commands Marvin to do LESS than what he has done before? You think that Woody has it out for Marvin because in the midst of Marvin's development, Woody tells Marvin to be less agressive and less of a scorer?

Come on man.

Even you don't believe that crap. IF Marvin were capable of more, Woody wouldn't dare hold him back. How many times did we see the offense give Marvin opportunity after opportunity to get it going only to see him defer. That's not by design, that's by choice. As much pressure as Woody has been under to make Marvin look good, he'd be a fool to limit Marvin when Marvin is showing signs of turning the corner. Especially under a new GM.

[MaceCase]

It's not a subject change whatsoever. The title is Marvin = Capable of more. There's a lot of excuse making saying that the only reason that Marvin doesn't do more is because he has been made to play a certain role or it's the system. I counter that argument by saying if it's the system, then anybody that comes in and plays Sf should fall victim to the same system?

I brought up Butler and Pierce... but really all we have to do is check out Joe Last year. Last year he played Sf.. and he did not play like Marvin plays? Neither did Flip when he was on the floor with Joe and Bibby.

You guys are blaming Marvin's lack of aggression on Woody or on the rest of the team... when in actuallity... Marvin's lack of aggression is Marvin's fault.

*sigh* So I ask you about jumpshooters and their assist % and what did you decide to do, bring up Pierce and Caron, two guys asked to go one on one in their offense. Why aren't you mentioning Ray Allen's 69% shots assisted or Antwan Jamison's 70% shots assisted? Or are you just focusing on the SF position? Okay then Peja 80% shots assisted, Shane Battier 83% shots assisted, Wally Z 68%, Luol Deng 73%. I much rather prefer to compare Marvin to jumpshooters because that is his major strength in our offense and guess what, they all have high assist percentages. You place any jumpshooter in Marvin's place and they will end up just like him because their offense is dependent on others. It is the coaches job to run plays to get their shooters open and it's the ballhandlers job to get them the ball. It's not an excuse it's called f'ning basketball!!! But no let's build the team Diesel's way, let's have a team full of one on one players and just run Iso's in every direction with each player, that's the way to win a championship!

[Admin]

*sigh* So I ask you about jumpshooters and their assist % and what did you decide to do, bring up Pierce and Caron, two guys asked to go one on one in their offense. Why aren't you mentioning Ray Allen's 69% shots assisted or Antwan Jamison's 70% shots assisted? Or are you just focusing on the SF position? Okay then Peja 80% shots assisted, Shane Battier 83% shots assisted, Wally Z 68%, Luol Deng 73%. I much rather prefer to compare Marvin to jumpshooters because that is his major strength in our offense and guess what, they all have high assist percentages. You place any jumpshooter in Marvin's place and they will end up just like him because their offense is dependent on others. It is the coaches job to run plays to get their shooters open and it's the ballhandlers job to get them the ball. It's not an excuse it's called f'ning basketball!!! But no let's build the team Diesel's way, let's have a team full of one on one players and just run Iso's in every direction with each player, that's the way to win a championship!

WHOA hold the fort here ... you mean to tell me that Marvin has a lower assisted FG percentage than Diesel's boy Deng whom he just LOVES to compare Marvin to statistically as what he should be as a player? That just can't be.

[jy23]

*sigh* So I ask you about jumpshooters and their assist % and what did you decide to do, bring up Pierce and Caron, two guys asked to go one on one in their offense. Why aren't you mentioning Ray Allen's 69% shots assisted or Antwan Jamison's 70% shots assisted? Or are you just focusing on the SF position? Okay then Peja 80% shots assisted, Shane Battier 83% shots assisted, Wally Z 68%, Luol Deng 73%. I much rather prefer to compare Marvin to jumpshooters because that is his major strength in our offense and guess what, they all have high assist percentages. You place any jumpshooter in Marvin's place and they will end up just like him because their offense is dependent on others. It is the coaches job to run plays to get their shooters open and it's the ballhandlers job to get them the ball. It's not an excuse it's called f'ning basketball!!! But no let's build the team Diesel's way, let's have a team full of one on one players and just run Iso's in every direction with each player, that's the way to win a championship!

So are we still going to get deng comparisons now? lol

[exodus]

*sigh* So I ask you about jumpshooters and their assist % and what did you decide to do, bring up Pierce and Caron, two guys asked to go one on one in their offense. Why aren't you mentioning Ray Allen's 69% shots assisted or Antwan Jamison's 70% shots assisted? Or are you just focusing on the SF position? Okay then Peja 80% shots assisted, Shane Battier 83% shots assisted, Wally Z 68%,Luol Deng 73%.

Edited July 29, 2009 by exodus

[Diesel]

*sigh* So I ask you about jumpshooters and their assist % and what did you decide to do, bring up Pierce and Caron, two guys asked to go one on one in their offense. Why aren't you mentioning Ray Allen's 69% shots assisted or Antwan Jamison's 70% shots assisted? Or are you just focusing on the SF position? Okay then Peja 80% shots assisted, Shane Battier 83% shots assisted, Wally Z 68%, Luol Deng 73%. I much rather prefer to compare Marvin to jumpshooters because that is his major strength in our offense and guess what, they all have high assist percentages. You place any jumpshooter in Marvin's place and they will end up just like him because their offense is dependent on others. It is the coaches job to run plays to get their shooters open and it's the ballhandlers job to get them the ball. It's not an excuse it's called f'ning basketball!!! But no let's build the team Diesel's way, let's have a team full of one on one players and just run Iso's in every direction with each player, that's the way to win a championship!

Ray Allen = 41% from 3 pt

Szerbiac = 41% from 3 pt

Luol Deng = 40% from 3 pt.

Peja = 38% from 3 pt.

Battier = 38% from 3 pt.

Jamison = 35% from 3pt (112 made)

Marvin = 35% from 3 pt (55 made).

Here is why these guys get assisted baskets. If you fail to get the connection, the better you shoot, the better you are out on the perimeter. Unfortunately, Marvin shot 35% from 3 and for his career he's a 30% shooter from three with only 263 3 pters to his credit. Therefore, it is a JOKE to classify Marvin with these guys who can really shoot from outside.

By the way...

Seeing that you want to talk about shooters... Let's look at Marvin's % assisted numbers more closely:

Marvin =

78% assisted on Dunks.

77% assisted on Jumpers.

54% assisted on Close shots.

Marvin = 78% assisted on Dunks?

Edited July 29, 2009 by Diesel

[exodus]

Ray Allen = 41% from 3 pt

Szerbiac = 41% from 3 pt

Luol Deng = 40% from 3 pt.

Peja = 38% from 3 pt.

Battier = 38% from 3 pt.

Jamison = 35% from 3pt (112 made)

Marvin = 35% from 3 pt (55 made).

Here is why these guys get assisted baskets. If you fail to get the connection, the better you shoot, the better you are out on the perimeter. Unfortunately, Marvin shot 35% from 3 and for his career he's a 30% shooter from three with only 263 3 pters to his credit. Therefore, it is a JOKE to classify Marvin with these guys who can really shoot from outside.

By the way...

Seeing that you want to talk about shooters... Let's look at Marvin's % assisted numbers more closely:

Marvin =

78% assisted on Dunks.

77% assisted on Jumpers.

54% assisted on Close shots.

Marvin = 78% assisted on Dunks?

Oh so now we are talking about dunks mr-change-the-subject-each-time-you-get-punk'd.

Josh Smith = 77% assisted on dunks and is 54% assisted on close shots.

Funny that you mention Deng shooting 40% from 3 but fail to mention that he only made 8 on the season. :slap1:

[Diesel]

Oh so now we are talking about dunks mr-change-the-subject-each-time-you-get-punk'd.

Josh Smith = 77% assisted on dunks and is 54% assisted on close shots.

Funny that you mention Deng shooting 40% from 3 but fail to mention that he only made 8 on the season. :slap1:

no, i'm perfectly fine leaving dunks out of the discussion.

Let's keep the subject back to where You and your boy had it...

Marvin has only hit 263 3 pters in his career.

How dare you name him amoung guys who can hit 263 3pters in a season and think that he fits.

For god sake, Marvin only shot 10% from three last season. How dare you name him along with Ray Allen as if Woody looked at his 10% from three and said... I have to leave him on the three point line to be my 3 pt Marksman.

You need to take those pictures you have and put them back in your photo album son. Because your weak argument has been owned, enslaved, crushed, or whatever you want to call it.

[MaceCase]

no, i'm perfectly fine leaving dunks out of the discussion.

Let's keep the subject back to where You and your boy had it...

Marvin has only hit 263 3 pters in his career.

How dare you name him amoung guys who can hit 263 3pters in a season and think that he fits.

For god sake, Marvin only shot 10% from three last season. How dare you name him along with Ray Allen as if Woody looked at his 10% from three and said... I have to leave him on the three point line to be my 3 pt Marksman.

You need to take those pictures you have and put them back in your photo album son. Because your weak argument has been owned, enslaved, crushed, or whatever you want to call it.

Hmmm so all those guys are jumpshooters like I said but now you want to make the argument 3 point jumpshooters. lacing up those tap shoes nicely I see.

Let's take a moment and read an excerpt from Hollinger's report on Marvin before the season started:

Ask a friend to make a list of the game's top mid-range jump shooters, and see how long it takes for this guy's name to come up. No, he isn't famous for it yet like Richard Hamilton or Sam Cassell, but Williams was one of the league's elite mid-range shooters last year.

Actually, for a jump shooter his stat line was really deceiving. Only one small forward took fewer 3-pointers per field-goal attempt than Williams, and only seven had a higher rate of free-throw attempts per field-goal attempt. Based on those numbers you'd think he was a lumbering post player, but he's a jump shooter. Really, I swear.

In fact, nearly half of his attempts were long 2-pointers, and only three players in all of basketball -- Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady and Travis Outlaw -- took more long 2s than Williams. He made a healthy 45.4 percent of them, the best mark of any player in the top 10 in attempts, and only Portland's Outlaw had a greater proportion of his attempts come from this distance

Hmm so apparently Marvin was already amongst the elite midrange jumpshooters in the NBA before Woody told him to extend that part of his game and come back with a 3 ball. What did Marvin do? He came back with a 3 ball and shot it at a respectable clip of 35%. Hell it took Rip Hamilton, the premier midrange jumpshooter of this decade, till the age of 27 before he made the 3 ball a consistent and accurate part of his repetoire.

And oh...Incase you were wondering... Rip Hamilton, 70% assisted shot percentage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j02k9t4rP50

[jy23]

Hmmm so all those guys are jumpshooters like I said but now you want to make the argument 3 point jumpshooters. lacing up those tap shoes nicely I see.

Let's take a moment and read an excerpt from Hollinger's report on Marvin before the season started:

Hmm so apparently Marvin was already amongst the elite midrange jumpshooters in the NBA before Woody told him to extend that part of his game and come back with a 3 ball. What did Marvin do? He came back with a 3 ball and shot it at a respectable clip of 35%. Hell it took Rip Hamilton, the premier midrange jumpshooter of this decade, till the age of 27 before he made the 3 ball a consistent and accurate part of his repetoire.

And oh...Incase you were wondering... Rip Hamilton, 70% assisted shot percentage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j02k9t4rP50

lol, this is hilarious!!!!!!!!!

[exodus]

no, i'm perfectly fine leaving dunks out of the discussion.

Let's keep the subject back to where You and your boy had it...

Marvin has only hit 263 3 pters in his career.

How dare you name him amoung guys who can hit 263 3pters in a season and think that he fits.

For god sake, Marvin only shot 10% from three last season. How dare you name him along with Ray Allen as if Woody looked at his 10% from three and said... I have to leave him on the three point line to be my 3 pt Marksman.

How dare you list Deng (who made only 8 threes this past season) with Marvin who made 7 times as many.

[Admin]

How dare you list Deng (who made only 8 threes this past season) with Marvin who made 7 times as many.

And who was also assisted on what 73% of his makes as well?