Did the fans understand what we had in Joe?

[Diesel]

Okay. Here is where a fundamental misunderstanding of the Joe criticism lies. I can't speak for others, but Joe not reaching "superstar" status or not being able to single-handedly carry the Hawks to a championship is not what the expectation was with him to most fans. Myself and probably many others, would feel completely different about Joe and his time as a hawk if he had simply been more clutch, consistent and a stronger vocal leader of this team. Let me add too that he could have performed much better in the playoffs(which is kinda synonymous with being clutch), barring the first Boston series where I think he was very good. If that Joe had been the Joe to play for the Hawks for the past 2-3 years, I'm willing to bet you that those here who are glad he's gone would have much kinder words to say about him. But pointing out his much to often disappointing play is accurate and backed up by the facts. Excusing his declining numbers and lackluster star quality clutch plays with assertions that he just didn't have good enough teammates to take the pressure off of him is, in my opinion, just that...making excuses. Bottom line, he could and should have been better.

More clutch and more outspoken. Seems like for the most part, people are more about look than Substance. Joe's playoff numbers are 17ppg, 4.4 rpg, 3.6 apg on 41% shooting. That's averaging in his first playoff with Phoenix which was not so great. His career averages are: 17.8 ppg, 4.2 rpg, and 4.4 apg on 44% shooting. You say that he didn't perform well in the playoffs. He performed about the same way he did in his reg season. But let's look at some comparison. You see, Joe was a star on a team where he was the only star. Let's compare that to Dwayne Wade. Wade Reg: 25.2 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 6.2 apg, 48.6% FG. Wade POs: 25.2 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 5.3 apg, 47.8% FG. Notice in Wade, there's also a slight dropoff in the playoffs. That is because when you are you're teams only star, the defense tends to key in on you and play a half court game... Nobody confronts Wade and says that he doesn't show up. Notice also that his two championships was when he played with arguably the best player in the game. When he didn't have the best player in the game, Joe and the Hawks were eliminating him.... so... so much for that. as far as outspoken?? Please. Is Tim Duncan Outspoken? How about Kevin Durant? Getting a big check doesn't change his personality.

[AHF]

Notice also that his two championships was when he played with arguably the best player in the game.

Wade's first championship was won with a guy who didn't get a single MVP vote. Wade was #6 in MVP voting that season. I don't know how Shaq can be seen as arguably the best player in the league that season without a single MVP vote. Has that ever happened?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

More clutch and more outspoken. Seems like for the most part, people are more about look than Substance. Joe's playoff numbers are 17ppg, 4.4 rpg, 3.6 apg on 41% shooting. That's averaging in his first playoff with Phoenix which was not so great. His career averages are: 17.8 ppg, 4.2 rpg, and 4.4 apg on 44% shooting. You say that he didn't perform well in the playoffs. He performed about the same way he did in his reg season. But let's look at some comparison. You see, Joe was a star on a team where he was the only star. Let's compare that to Dwayne Wade. Wade Reg: 25.2 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 6.2 apg, 48.6% FG. Wade POs: 25.2 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 5.3 apg, 47.8% FG. Notice in Wade, there's also a slight dropoff in the playoffs. That is because when you are you're teams only star, the defense tends to key in on you and play a half court game... Nobody confronts Wade and says that he doesn't show up. Notice also that his two championships was when he played with arguably the best player in the game. When he didn't have the best player in the game, Joe and the Hawks were eliminating him.... so... so much for that. as far as outspoken?? Please. Is Tim Duncan Outspoken? How about Kevin Durant? Getting a big check doesn't change his personality.

JJ underperformed in the playoffs. Really can't deny that. Too many times he was way too passive and should've been trying to assert his will on people offensively. A lot of times in the playoffs, you pretty much have to take a shot as soon as you're open, because defenses are much tougher during that time. JJ simply didn't do that most nights in the postseason. He played "team ball" even when the team needed to get up 20+ shots offensively. When JJ scored 20+ points in a playoff game, the Hawks were . . . 13 - 6 ( .684 ) When JJ took 20+ shots in a playoff game, the Hawks were . . . 6 - 3 ( .667 ) The flip side to that is this: When JJ scored less than 20 points in a playoff game, the Hawks were . . . 7 - 19 ( .269 ) When JJ took less than 20 shots in a playoff game, the Hawks were . . . 13 - 24 ( .351 ) The numbers don't lie. He simply didn't it done more times than not. And a lot of that can be attributed to him simply not being aggressive enough early in playoff games. I don't know if he was coached to try to get everybody else involved to begin games before he looked for his own offense, or he had that mindset on his own. All I know that it was never a good sign to see the Hawks down 7+ points in the 1st quarter, and JJ had only attempted 2 shots. As the most versatile scorer on the team, he was the one the Hawks needed to get going first, not everybody else. And the way he held the ball at times didn't help him at all during playoff time either. Also, he had no one on the team that could help him get those 20 points easily, so he either needed to take and make more open shots as soon as they were available. Even when the shot didn't fall, he needed to keep shooting, seeing that he was one of the only guys on the team who could score in bunches. He had to be in attack mode at all times. It just didn't help him at all that he never played with a great "set-up" man to make his life a little easier. Josh Smith probably set him up more than anybody, and he's our PF. But we needed Josh Smith more in the paint, so that he can grab more offensive rebounds. Honestly, he had "too many hats" while here in ATL. The guy should've simply been looked at to score the basketball and defend his position, while dishing out "timely assists". Instead, he had to score the basketball AND set people up. And this is why the guy will probably make Brooklyn look like geniuses for picking him up. He doesn't have to be the primary ball handler nor the primary faciliatator anymore. All he has to do is score the basketball either in catch and shoot situations or in isolation, defend his position, and dish out timely assists to people. Avery Johnson likes isolation basketball, so JJ will still get his fill of that. But Avery will also have that guy set up more in the post, so that he can use his size to his advantage. Like people say with Smith if he left, JJ will finally get some "real coaching". Bottom line is this: Woody basically used JJ like he was a combination of Lebron and Kobe, without putting him in spots to make his life better offensively. He didn't have the athleticism those two had, so that didn't work, especially during playoff time. Drew basically used JJ like he was a combination of Paul Pierce and Richard Hamilton, basically reducing his shots for the so-called "good of the team", but exclusively going to him at the end of games via ISO. Both philosophies didn't maximize the skills that dude brought to the table. It would've helped him to have another high quality guard play alongside him. He has that now in Brooklyn.

[MaceCase]

as far as outspoken?? Please. Is Tim Duncan Outspoken? How about Kevin Durant? Getting a big check doesn't change his personality.

Want to know what happens when Duncan speaks?

Everybody f***ing listens. His leadership is never questioned.

Edited July 26, 2012 by MaceCase

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Wade's first championship was won with a guy who didn't get a single MVP vote. Wade was #6 in MVP voting that season. I don't know how Shaq can be seen as arguably the best player in the league that season without a single MVP vote. Has that ever happened?

Shaq's numbers in that season 23.5 ppg 10.8 rebs 2.3 asst 2.1 stls 60% FG ( led the league ) 47% FT Only played in 59 games that year ( which probably had a lot to do with the MVP voting ) Miami finished with a 52 - 30 record that year Miami was 42 - 17 when Shaq played Miami was 10 - 13 when he didn't play That's pretty substantial evidence that if he wasn't the best player in the league, that he should've at least got some MVP votes, seeing how important he was to the success of the Heat that year. Wade deserved the accolades he got that year though. LOL . . that also illustrates that even in a year in which Wade played like a superstar, his team was woefully inadequate without Shaq. In other words, even Wade needed help that year.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

When JJ scored 20+ points in a playoff game, the Hawks were . . . 13 - 6 ( .684 ) When JJ took 20+ shots in a playoff game, the Hawks were . . . 6 - 3 ( .667 ) The flip side to that is this: When JJ scored less than 20 points in a playoff game, the Hawks were . . . 7 - 19 ( .269 ) When JJ took less than 20 shots in a playoff game, the Hawks were . . . 13 - 24 ( .351 )

Basketball-reference has JJ playing a total of 47 playoff games, while my count had him at 45 playoff games. So my calculations are slightly off, but still very close to what these numbers show. JJ only averaged 16.6 shots a game during the playoffs with the Hawks while scoring 18 points. His inability to get to the FT line kills him during playoff time. Most of that had to do with his aggressiveness. Some of that had to do with the coaches not calling more post ups for him for him to possibly draw more fouls. So if he wasn't going to get to the FT line more, he had to get up more shots, with the frontline being instructed to get more offensive rebounds. One of the things that can be coached, is "how" to draw more fouls. I wonder if JJ ever received that type of coaching from Woody or Drew? That's why I really didn't have a problem with the game JJ had in Game 3. He took a whopping 28 shots ( the most he's ever taken in a playoff game ), only made 11 of them, and scored 29 points. But he was aggressive enough throughout the entire game to keep him engaged, which enabled him to make those shots at the end of regulation to send the game into OT. Had Drew gave Teague a little more looks, instead of relying on an obviously injured T-Mac in the 2nd half, we might have pulled out that game. And what happens the next game? JJ goes 4 - 8 FG for 9 points, with the Hawks getting blow out early. He was 3 - 4 FG in the 1st half of that game for 6 points, but the Hawks were down by 23 at halftime. While the problem in that game was a defensive one, ( and a player rotation problem ), it didn't help that the offensive star of the team only took 4 shots before the half. That was my major complaint with the dude at times . . . his aggressiveness. Sometimes, your star players have to do that, with everybody else simply playing their role offensively and everyone playing solid defense.

[AHF]

Shaq's numbers in that season

23.5 ppg

10.8 rebs

2.3 asst

2.1 stls

60% FG ( led the league )

47% FT

Only played in 59 games that year ( which probably had a lot to do with the MVP voting )

Miami finished with a 52 - 30 record that year

Miami was 42 - 17 when Shaq played

Miami was 10 - 13 when he didn't play

That's pretty substantial evidence that if he wasn't the best player in the league, that he should've at least got some MVP votes, seeing how important he was to the success of the Heat that year. Wade deserved the accolades he got that year though.

LOL . . that also illustrates that even in a year in which Wade played like a superstar, his team was woefully inadequate without Shaq. In other words, even Wade needed help that year.

I am a bit confused where you got your numbers because basketball reference has very different numbers for Shaq's 59 games

20.0 ppg

9.2 rpg

1.9 apg

0.4 stlpg

Dirk in 81 games

26.6 ppg

9.0 rpg

2.8 apg

0.7 stlpg

KG in 76 games

21.8 ppg

12.7 rpg (led the league)

4.1 apg

1.4 stlpg

How can you argue, Shaq > KG, Dirk, and others that season when he played fewer games and did less in them? Even in the games he played, Shaq only averaged 30.6 mpg.

He was still very good, so don't mistake me. I'm not saying he was a chump but he just didn't play the minutes or have the impact that others did that season.

Edited July 26, 2012 by AHF

[Admin]

I am a bit confused where you got your numbers because basketball reference has very different numbers for Shaq's 59 games

20.0 ppg

9.2 rpg

1.9 apg

0.4 stlpg

Dirk in 81 games

26.6 ppg

9.0 rpg

2.8 apg

0.7 stlpg

KG in 76 games

21.8 ppg

12.7 rpg (led the league)

4.1 apg

1.4 stlpg

How can you argue, Shaq > KG, Dirk, and others that season when he played fewer games and did less in them? Even in the games he played, Shaq only averaged 30.6 mpg.

He was still very good, so don't mistake me. I'm not saying he was a chump but he just didn't play the minutes or have the impact that others did that season.

He was looking at the PER 36 numbers for Shaq that year to get those numbers.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I am a bit confused where you got your numbers because basketball reference has very different numbers for Shaq's 59 games

20.0 ppg

9.2 rpg

1.9 apg

0.4 stlpg

KG in 76 games

21.8 ppg

12.7 rpg (led the league)

4.1 apg

1.4 stlpg

How can you argue, Shaq > KG that season?

My bad . . I was looking at Shaq's Per 36 numbers. Funny thing is . . if you DID look at their Per 36 that year, here is the comparison

Points

Shaq - 23.5

Garnett - 20.2

Rebounds

Garnett - 11.8

Shaq - 10.8

Assists

Garnett - 3.7

Shaq - 2.3

Blocks

Shaq - 2.1 ( I said that Shaq had 2.1 stls in the previous post. It was blocks, not steals )

Garnett - 1.3

FG%

Shaq - .600

Garnett - .526

PER

Garnett - 26.8

Shaq - 24.4

WS/48

Garnett - .242

Shaq - .164

I won't deny that Garnett had the better year. But you kind of made it seem like that Shaq didn't have a season worthy of some MVP votes. That dude was vitally important to the Heat that year and played at a high level when he was healthy. They win 60 games if Shaq plays around 72 games. With Wade at his side, he could play "The Thing" while Wade played "Flash".

[Admin]

My bad . . I was looking at Shaq's Per 36 numbers. Funny thing is . . if you DID look at their Per 36 that year, here is the comparison Points Shaq - 23.5 Garnett - 20.2 Rebounds Garnett - 11.8 Shaq - 10.8 Assists Garnett - 3.7 Shaq - 2.3 Blocks Shaq - 2.1 ( I said that Shaq had 2.1 stls in the previous post. It was blocks, not steals ) Garnett - 1.3 FG% Shaq - .600 Garnett - .526 PER Garnett - 26.8 Shaq - 24.4 WS/48 Garnett - .242 Shaq - .164 I won't deny that Garnett had the better year. But you kind of made it seem like that Shaq didn't have a season worthy of some MVP votes. That dude was vitally important to the Heat that year and played at a high level when he was healthy. They win 60 games if Shaq plays around 72 games. With Wade at his side, he could play "The Thing" while Wade played "Flash".

The dude was such a shell of his former self that he was barely able to play an average of 30 minutes per game and missed 23 games as well. Granted a shell of Shaq was still a pretty damn good player, but Wade was far and away the best player on the team that year and he averaged 29/6/6 while shooting 50% during the playoffs! Shaq on the other hand averaged 18/10 but did shoot 60% during the playoffs.

[Diesel]

Wade's first championship was won with a guy who didn't get a single MVP vote. Wade was #6 in MVP voting that season. I don't know how Shaq can be seen as arguably the best player in the league that season without a single MVP vote. Has that ever happened?

He was one season and one series removed from being the Center on a three peat team. The next season he got 12 MVP votes. He was definitely the best C in the game at that point. He was also one of the most dominating players in the history of basketball at that point.

[AHF]

He was one season and one series removed from being the Center on a three peat team. The next season he got 12 MVP votes. He was definitely the best C in the game at that point. He was also one of the most dominating players in the history of basketball at that point.

He was also the second best player for his team and clearly no longer the best player in the league at that point. Did you see the playoff numbers Dolf posted? Wade 29/6/6 Shaq 18/10

[Diesel]

He was also the second best player for his team and clearly no longer the best player in the league at that point. Did you see the playoff numbers Dolf posted? Wade 29/6/6 Shaq 18/10

But without Shaq... Miami is bounced in the first round. Point is that sometimes a guy's presence helps the other guy immensely.

[AHF]

But without Shaq... Miami is bounced in the first round. Point is that sometimes a guy's presence helps the other guy immensely.

Without Wade, Miami misses the playoffs. There is no doubt they helped each other immensely, though, I'll agree with that. Very few players can carry a team to the playoffs by themselves or get anywhere if they do make it.

[Endy9]

My biggest "what if" moment in Hawks history is what if we didn't trade Bill Russell and built around him and the best player in Hawks history, Pettit. Dynasty? Likely.

Didn't even know about that one. For me it was what if the courts hadn't stripped us of Dr. J in 1973, ordering him back to the ABA Nets to fulfill his contract? Him and Pete together for a full season would have been awesome to see. Always gauled me to see later that all the favored teams got whomever they wanted from the ABA teams that came in. The Hawks of course got squat. NBA commish has always ensured the rich get richer.

[Sothron]

Didn't even know about that one. For me it was what if the courts hadn't stripped us of Dr. J in 1973, ordering him back to the ABA Nets to fulfill his contract? Him and Pete together for a full season would have been awesome to see. Always gauled me to see later that all the favored teams got whomever they wanted from the ABA teams that came in. The Hawks of course got squat. NBA commish has always ensured the rich get richer.

We didn't even get the guy we drafted with the number one pick who went to the ABA instead. We've still yet to have a number one pick that actually played with the team.

[AHF]

We didn't even get the guy we drafted with the number one pick who went to the ABA instead. We've still yet to have a number one pick that actually played with the team.

That is the harshest part. "No, you can't have Doc because another team drafted him. No, you can't have your only #1 draft pick in franchise history because he went to the ABA and now can sign with whomever."

[Guest]

That is the harshest part. "No, you can't have Doc because another team drafted him. No, you can't have your only #1 draft pick in franchise history because he went to the ABA and now can sign with whomever."

? But Thompson never signed with an NBA team, he came in with the the Nuggets to the NBA. Are you saying the Hawks should have still had the rights when the NBA-ABA merged and shouldn't have allowed the Nuggets to bring Thompson into the league? I have 0 problems with this, from what I read the Hawks did not even reach out to David when they drafted him number one. Hell, the Hawks took him to McDonald's for their first meeting! Seems pretty stupid when you have another league right there competing for your player.

[DrReality]

What was the original focus of this thread?

[wolvetigers]

Joe is a good shooting guard, but not a superstar, nor a leader plus with a crippling contract. I like joe but definitely time for a change.