I Am Calling Out Those That Call Al Horford an Elite Player

[Lurker]

He actually got 10 boards tonight, but for me an elite player has to be able to take over games on the offensive end, and average more than 15 points and 6ish boards a game.

And I fully see why he wouldn't be able to average more anyway. The guy has no post moves so you have to get it in deep for him to be able to score, can't create off of the dribble, and his offense is purely the pnr and pnp.

Good player, but he is not elite at all.

[Guest]

Thread is really not necessary.  

[Hawkmoor]

2 hours ago, Lurker said:

He actually got 10 boards tonight, but for me an elite player has to be able to take over games on the offensive end, and average more than 15 points and 6ish boards a game.

And I fully see why he wouldn't be able to average more anyway. The guy has no post moves so you have to get it in deep for him to be able to score, can't create off of the dribble, and his offense is purely the pnr and pnp.

Good player, but he is not elite at all.

but he can spread the floor.............thats all bud worried about.......

[Diesel]

I don't disagree with a word that you have said.  In fact, I have preached the same thing for years.   However, just recently, I have evolved in my thinking about Al in this system.   My thinking is and have always been that the skillset necessary to win is that you have shooters and you have a big who can man the boards, get the easy shots, and play defense.  That's traditional basketball. However, I had to sit back and say to myself,  "What is traditional about what Bud has done?"  Honestly, Bud hasn't done anything in the traditional realm of Basketball so why should C play be any different?  Maybe Bud wants 5 men on the perimeter and a team with no go to scorer?  Maybe he believes that the ambiguity alone on the offensive end will give the other teams' defense fits.  I mean, we have seen it work.  Is it traditional? No... but if we wanted tradition, then we would have Lon Kruger or Mike Stotts in the HCing role. 

I hate that Al is as soft as a Jelly roll... but that may be a part of the plan?   So that whether we have Soft Al or Dikembe in the C position, it won't matter because our offense would be fluid?

Just saying it puts a bad taste in my mouth but I have to wait on the results before I fully critique?

 

[benhillboy]

Al has his steadfast supporters, that won't change and it shouldn't.  

I've forfeited to the fact (and obviously the coaches have too) that he feels he's owed a year of being injury free and a chance at his payday as thanks for all his years of service playing out of position.  I don't like it one bit but to borrow the worst phrase ever created, "it is what it is."  

He always had a similar skillset to Noah (when he was actually good a couple years ago) and Marc Gasol.  A quick glance at The Ref will show them as the closest career comparisons, the most closely related factors likely being assists, win shares, and playing alongside pretty productive 4s throughout their careers. Problem is Al isn't nearly strong enough to anchor a defense to the tune of DPOY.  On the flip side you can't facilitate through him because he can't handle like they can and now he's camped out at the arc.  

I never was a fan of those guys, but even at their individual peaks they couldn't help carry their teams to the Finals and highly likely never will.  Al is a role player.  Absolutely the highest quality role player you could ever have in the NBA, but still, a role player.  

A center shooting .309 on more three point attempts than free throws pulling down 7.0 boards a game simply isn't "elite."  

He's a jack of all trades, master of none.  That's a strength at the forward positions, but not at C.  A True C defends the rim, fights for all possible boards, and shoots high percentage shots.  That's it.  That's how you have more than one monstrous performance in your career being dedicated to those three duties.  Now your upper body being compromised through past injury preventing you from doing so is another issue that management needs to figure out real quick.

You'd never confuse Tim Duncan with an impressive physical specimen at the Center position yet he has more 28-15 performances in the Conference Finals and beyond than Al's entire career.  Regarless of him playing 4 alongside whoever, he stayed in a Center's style of play.   I'm just holding out hope that the staff has a grand scheme to move Al to 4 if they deem Paul undersized and overpriced.  If this staff starts Edy out in the corners and shying away from contact I'm picketing outside Phillips with fervor.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Thread is really not necessary.  

Weeeeeelll, when you have folks coming on here saying the guy's a top 10 player and such nonsense ..... thread may have a place.

Besides, it's not like the mods have the gonads to shut it down anyways (hehe).

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Weeeeeelll, when you have folks coming on here saying the guy's a top 10 player and such nonsense ..... thread may have a place.

Besides, it's not like the mods have the gonads to shut it down anyways (hehe).

@kg01 You mean the same folks who are convinced that Al is better than Karl Malone ever was.  

  

That's why no need to call people out.

[Duff_Man]

"I am calling out anyone with a different opinion than myself on a completely subjective topic."

[AHF]

We all know it.  What @JayBirdHawk is saying is we need to:

[Jody23]

The Hawks apparently have decided (if you believe recent reports) they will offer Horford a max deal after the season, basically locking into the Millsap and Horford combination.  If they do that, what will they have left to upgrade the team?  And if they feel Horford deserves the max, what will they do for Teague the following year?

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, AHF said:

@AHF   uuummmmm????

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

@kg01 You mean the same folks who are convinced that Al is better than Karl Malone ever was.  

That's why no need to call people out.

But it's not like the OP was being rude.  I took it as asking the simple question, "uh, what are y'all seeing?"

5 minutes ago, Jody23 said:

The Hawks apparently have decided (if you believe recent reports) they will offer Horford a max deal after the season, basically locking into the Millsap and Horford combination.  If they do that, what will they have left to upgrade the team?  And if they feel Horford deserves the max, what will they do for Teague the following year?

You get a max!  You get a max! Kyle, are you still breathing?  You get a max too!!  Everybody gets a max!

[hawkman]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

But it's not like the OP was being rude.  I took it as asking the simple question, "uh, what are y'all seeing?"

You get a max!  You get a max! Kyle, are you still breathing?  You get a max too!!  Everybody gets a max!

I like this team but to max everyone out is to be locked in purgatory once again. To be completely honest, this team isn't winning a championship and we don't have any superstars so I have to question why anyone on this team would 'expect' a max deal. I can stomach Sap's deal because he has played up to his contract. But I'm tired of the Hawks being 'capped out' with relatively mediocre talent on the team.  It's not my money, but to offer Horf a max deal just because we can't get anybody else is the same kind of decision making that led to the Joe Johnson contract.

[macdaddy]

Way to call out no one.

[Wretch]

Many moons ago, I said that Horf wasn't the player that people wanted him to be (I said the same for Josh Smith) for the very reasons that he routinely called out around here.  Over the past couple of seasons, I've really changed the way I look at the game and its players.  There will always be guys who can take over/put a team on their back/etc.  However, loath as I am to admit it, I was brainwashed into thinking that having that guy was  precursor to greatness.

The problem, or perceived problem, isn't so much Horford - it is our expectations once the "system" stops flowing.  When the machine breaks down, no one on this team is going to "save" us.  It'd be great to have that guy, but for better or worse, for us to win...our machine and it's parts, can't fail.  In the past, I felt that was too complicated and risky to be effective over the long run.  But having everyone do their part is the very meaning of "team."  Moreover, I don't understand how I thought that having the entire offense hinge upon one guy's performance was less of a risk.

Bottom line is, we need the right parts, but not necessarily the best parts.   That being said, Horford is a very good player, he's right for this system, and I don't think we should be so much worried about what he contributes individually.  Obviously we must take care not to paint ourselves into a corner by investing in a bunch of parts that don't elevate us - but even that isn't so much of a concern if I understand the cap projections right.  What is a current Horf max going to look like against a $100+ million cap in a couple of seasons?

[Diesel]

To add on to what @Wretch stated.   I think failure brings about the want for us to revert back to a system that we know that we're not suited to run.   i.e.  Shooters surrounding an elite post player.    That's not the system that Bud elects to play.  Bud elects to play an amoeba-like offense where everybody works together.  Not your normal motion or pick and roll or pick and pop although all of those can be used.  His system is a flowing offense that allows anybody at anytime to be the man.   When it wins and we dominate 6 teams in a row, we're all happy.  When it fails because of too many turnovers or somebody having an off night... we're all damning the system.   We are the same team that rattled off 19 in a row last year.   We definitely are not the traditional basketball team and YES Al has been playing pansy-like because he doesn't want to get hurt.  However, I'm not up for reverting.  I see a Schuerholz type next man up minor league being built.  I mean, what's not to like about Marcus Ericksson and Walter Edy Taverns.  What's there not to like about having guys like Scott and Dennis off the bench.   You're right, we have lost the me first mentality with most of our players.   That's what Bud has built.   Nothing elite but when they all work together and do their part, damn near unbeatable.

 

[Jody23]

The NBA is still a players league and as teams like Golden State and San Antonio (last two champions) have shown, having elite individual players on your team doesn't have to prevent you from employing a team first style of basketball.  In the end, the talent and skillset of the players still matter greatly.  It's not the only factor, but it's still a big one.  I'm a firm believer that what Bud runs will ultimately work, but I do not believe that this is the right mix of players to win a title.

[hawkman]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

To add on to what @Wretch stated.   I think failure brings about the want for us to revert back to a system that we know that we're not suited to run.   i.e.  Shooters surrounding an elite post player.    That's not the system that Bud elects to play.  Bud elects to play an amoeba-like offense where everybody works together.  Not your normal motion or pick and roll or pick and pop although all of those can be used.  His system is a flowing offense that allows anybody at anytime to be the man.   When it wins and we dominate 6 teams in a row, we're all happy.  When it fails because of too many turnovers or somebody having an off night... we're all damning the system.   We are the same team that rattled off 19 in a row last year.   We definitely are not the traditional basketball team and YES Al has been playing pansy-like because he doesn't want to get hurt.  However, I'm not up for reverting.  I see a Schuerholz type next man up minor league being built.  I mean, what's not to like about Marcus Ericksson and Walter Edy Taverns.  What's there not to like about having guys like Scott and Dennis off the bench.   You're right, we have lost the me first mentality with most of our players.   That's what Bud has built.   Nothing elite but when they all work together and do their part, damn near unbeatable.

 

It doesn't have to be an either/or situation. There are great players out there that fit into systems similar to what the Hawks have. GSW  and the Spurs are both teams that have superstar players and yet move the ball around. What I'm trying to say is it still takes great players to win Championships, but you can't get those players if you make a habit out of maxing lesser players out of desperation. 

[Hawkmoor]

6 hours ago, Diesel said:

I don't disagree with a word that you have said.  In fact, I have preached the same thing for years.   However, just recently, I have evolved in my thinking about Al in this system.   My thinking is and have always been that the skillset necessary to win is that you have shooters and you have a big who can man the boards, get the easy shots, and play defense.  That's traditional basketball. However, I had to sit back and say to myself,  "What is traditional about what Bud has done?"  Honestly, Bud hasn't done anything in the traditional realm of Basketball so why should C play be any different?  Maybe Bud wants 5 men on the perimeter and a team with no go to scorer?  Maybe he believes that the ambiguity alone on the offensive end will give the other teams' defense fits.  I mean, we have seen it work.  Is it traditional? No... but if we wanted tradition, then we would have Lon Kruger or Mike Stotts in the HCing role. 

I hate that Al is as soft as a Jelly roll... but that may be a part of the plan?   So that whether we have Soft Al or Dikembe in the C position, it won't matter because our offense would be fluid?

Just saying it puts a bad taste in my mouth but I have to wait on the results before I fully critique?

 

 

" aint that what i tried to do???

 

 

 

lol.......... on a serious note, Al is a parodox, just like the lineups billy knight put together. Al is one of the MAJOR reasons the Hawks wins, but he is also THE reason they will not win a championship with him playing center. 

Edited December 29, 2015 by Hawkmoor

[Hawkmoor]

4 hours ago, benhillboy said:

Al has his steadfast supporters, that won't change and it shouldn't.  

I've forfeited to the fact (and obviously the coaches have too) that he feels he's owed a year of being injury free and a chance at his payday as thanks for all his years of service playing out of position.  I don't like it one bit but to borrow the worst phrase ever created, "it is what it is."  

He always had a similar skillset to Noah (when he was actually good a couple years ago) and Marc Gasol.  A quick glance at The Ref will show them as the closest career comparisons, the most closely related factors likely being assists, win shares, and playing alongside pretty productive 4s throughout their careers. Problem is Al isn't nearly strong enough to anchor a defense to the tune of DPOY.  On the flip side you can't facilitate through him because he can't handle like they can and now he's camped out at the arc.  

I never was a fan of those guys, but even at their individual peaks they couldn't help carry their teams to the Finals and highly likely never will.  Al is a role player.  Absolutely the highest quality role player you could ever have in the NBA, but still, a role player.  

A center shooting .309 on more three point attempts than free throws pulling down 7.0 boards a game simply isn't "elite."  

He's a jack of all trades, master of none.  That's a strength at the forward positions, but not at C.  A True C defends the rim, fights for all possible boards, and shoots high percentage shots.  That's it.  That's how you have more than one monstrous performance in your career being dedicated to those three duties.  Now your upper body being compromised through past injury preventing you from doing so is another issue that management needs to figure out real quick.

You'd never confuse Tim Duncan with an impressive physical specimen at the Center position yet he has more 28-15 performances in the Conference Finals and beyond than Al's entire career.  Regarless of him playing 4 alongside whoever, he stayed in a Center's style of play.   I'm just holding out hope that the staff has a grand scheme to move Al to 4 if they deem Paul undersized and overpriced.  If this staff starts Edy out in the corners and shying away from contact I'm picketing outside Phillips with fervor.

you  brought a tear to my eye................