I Am Calling Out Those That Call Al Horford an Elite Player

[Hawkmoor]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

To add on to what @Wretch stated.   I think failure brings about the want for us to revert back to a system that we know that we're not suited to run.   i.e.  Shooters surrounding an elite post player.    That's not the system that Bud elects to play.  Bud elects to play an amoeba-like offense where everybody works together.  Not your normal motion or pick and roll or pick and pop although all of those can be used.  His system is a flowing offense that allows anybody at anytime to be the man.   When it wins and we dominate 6 teams in a row, we're all happy.  When it fails because of too many turnovers or somebody having an off night... we're all damning the system.   We are the same team that rattled off 19 in a row last year.   We definitely are not the traditional basketball team and YES Al has been playing pansy-like because he doesn't want to get hurt.  However, I'm not up for reverting.  I see a Schuerholz type next man up minor league being built.  I mean, what's not to like about Marcus Ericksson and Walter Edy Taverns.  What's there not to like about having guys like Scott and Dennis off the bench.   You're right, we have lost the me first mentality with most of our players.   That's what Bud has built.   Nothing elite but when they all work together and do their part, damn near unbeatable.

 

There is NOTHING wrong with the system that tweaking wouldnt improve upon. I said in another post that Bud can tweak his sets so that Horford is finishing at the rim. Bud is taking Pop's sets, and instead of keeping Al near the paint like Pop does with his bigs, he obviously has Al floating out as a wing player, like he did with Pero.

 Pop will have Duncan pick and STAY PUT, Bud will pick and " Pop ", ironic, lol.  It will get you wins during the season, but in the playoffs, when teams run out and cover the wings, the Hawks only have Sap slicing to the basket. They need Al finishing the sets near the paint. That will spread the defense inside out instead of side to side like Bud prefers.....

Edited December 29, 2015 by Hawkmoor

[Diesel]

41 minutes ago, hawkman said:

It doesn't have to be an either/or situation. There are great players out there that fit into systems similar to what the Hawks have. GSW  and the Spurs are both teams that have superstar players and yet move the ball around. What I'm trying to say is it still takes great players to win Championships, but you can't get those players if you make a habit out of maxing lesser players out of desperation. 

That's the theory.   However, the Pistons of a few years ago won the championship without what I would call a great player.  Moreover , we were one of the last four teams standing last year without a great player.  Had we not be so injured, who knows.

 

[Jody23]

40 minutes ago, Diesel said:

That's the theory.   However, the Pistons of a few years ago won the championship without what I would call a great player.  Moreover , we were one of the last four teams standing last year without a great player.  Had we not be so injured, who knows.

 

Nothing about what @hawkman said was theory.  It's been proven as fact over and over again.  Level of talent matters.  Elite talent matters.  The Hawks (and really the entire state of Georgia) need to get out of this "being just good enough is alright with us" type of mentality.  They've been citing the Pistons as a model for years when in reality that Pistons team was far superior in talent top to bottom and they only won one title.

And as far as last year, it seems there's always a built in excuse for protecting the status quo.  Yes the Hawks were injured, but the Cavs were just as injured if not more and it was still a sweep.  The Hawks are winless against Lebron in the playoffs.  Truth is the Cavs were and are better than the Hawks.  I want to see the Hawks change that, not continue to make excuses for it.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Jody23 said:

Nothing about what @hawkman said was theory.  It's been proven as fact over and over again.  Level of talent matters.  Elite talent matters.  The Hawks (and really the entire state of Georgia) need to get out of this "being just good enough is alright with us" type of mentality.  They've been citing the Pistons as a model for years when in reality that Pistons team was far superior in talent top to bottom and they only won one title.

And as far as last year, it seems there's always a built in excuse for protecting the status quo.  Yes the Hawks were injured, but the Cavs were just as injured if not more and it was still a sweep.  The Hawks are winless against Lebron in the playoffs.  Truth is the Cavs were and are better than the Hawks.  I want to see the Hawks change that.

You know, that DET team gets thrown around a lot when folks try to rationalize the fact that we lack talent.  I think they were really good but the fact that they have a ring was more a statement of the level of dysfunction on that LAL squad more so than a statement that talent deficient teams can still win it all.  IOW, if Kobe/Shaq were on top of their games, no one would even be thinking of that DET team.

[JTB]

I would think that every Hawks fan out there truly knows horford isn't an elite player, but I know some of us can be a little over the top on our own players! Lol

But anyways what horford is...is a good player who's cable of making the all star game every year similar to Sap. 

By no means is he elite but what he does have is an elite skill which is his mid range shot and it's arguably the best in league...I would say surely top 5. But keep in mind we are in the era where the mid range shot is dead and the 3pt shot is alive and well. That's not to take away from horford, I think he would still be in the top 5 on mid range shots even if the league attempted more as a whole.

 

Other than that horford has been a great all around player also offensively and defensively. Up until the last two seasons he use to avg around 10 Rebs a game too and was our only good rebounder seems like in the Johnson era.

Its not easy to replace Horford and he's earned the max contract  he will receive this summer hopefully from the Hawks if you look over his whole career. He's done nothing but good for the Hawks.

 

Last if horford could have ever learned to create his own shot or some post moves perhaps this thread would have been different today....but that's just not who he is. I wouldn't say he's good enough to be a robin on a team with a star but I would say if he was on a team that had 2 stars and he was the 3rd team option...it would be a huge cheat! Lol....I don't no where he lies in that discussion. In my opinion he's not a 1st or 2nd team option but hes definitely better than a 3rd team option all at the same time. But I will leave that for another thread.

[Hawkmoor]

3 hours ago, Hawkmoor said:

There is NOTHING wrong with the system that tweaking wouldnt improve upon. I said in another post that Bud can tweak his sets so that Horford is finishing at the rim. Bud is taking Pop's sets, and instead of keeping Al near the paint like Pop does with his bigs, he obviously has Al floating out as a wing player, like he did with Pero.

 Pop will have Duncan pick and STAY PUT, Bud will pick and " Pop ", ironic, lol.  It will get you wins during the season, but in the playoffs, when teams run out and cover the wings, the Hawks only have Sap slicing to the basket. They need Al finishing the sets near the paint. That will spread the defense inside out instead of side to side like Bud prefers.....

 

Heres a example of what i mean. Here, the Spurs run a staggered Pick with Duncan.  Look where he finishes:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr-7PaaBiFE

Edited December 29, 2015 by Hawkmoor

[NBASupes]

8 hours ago, benhillboy said:

Al has his steadfast supporters, that won't change and it shouldn't.  

I've forfeited to the fact (and obviously the coaches have too) that he feels he's owed a year of being injury free and a chance at his payday as thanks for all his years of service playing out of position.  I don't like it one bit but to borrow the worst phrase ever created, "it is what it is."  

He always had a similar skillset to Noah (when he was actually good a couple years ago) and Marc Gasol.  A quick glance at The Ref will show them as the closest career comparisons, the most closely related factors likely being assists, win shares, and playing alongside pretty productive 4s throughout their careers. Problem is Al isn't nearly strong enough to anchor a defense to the tune of DPOY.  On the flip side you can't facilitate through him because he can't handle like they can and now he's camped out at the arc.  

I never was a fan of those guys, but even at their individual peaks they couldn't help carry their teams to the Finals and highly likely never will.  Al is a role player.  Absolutely the highest quality role player you could ever have in the NBA, but still, a role player.  

A center shooting .309 on more three point attempts than free throws pulling down 7.0 boards a game simply isn't "elite."  

He's a jack of all trades, master of none.  That's a strength at the forward positions, but not at C.  A True C defends the rim, fights for all possible boards, and shoots high percentage shots.  That's it.  That's how you have more than one monstrous performance in your career being dedicated to those three duties.  Now your upper body being compromised through past injury preventing you from doing so is another issue that management needs to figure out real quick.

You'd never confuse Tim Duncan with an impressive physical specimen at the Center position yet he has more 28-15 performances in the Conference Finals and beyond than Al's entire career.  Regarless of him playing 4 alongside whoever, he stayed in a Center's style of play.   I'm just holding out hope that the staff has a grand scheme to move Al to 4 if they deem Paul undersized and overpriced.  If this staff starts Edy out in the corners and shying away from contact I'm picketing outside Phillips with fervor.

I can't say agree or disagree.  I will say he's elite but he's not an anchor in the way you may see him but he is. Truth is, he's not a rim protector or a 1st option on offense.  That's obvious. 

[NBASupes]

3 hours ago, Hawkmoor said:

There is NOTHING wrong with the system that tweaking wouldnt improve upon. I said in another post that Bud can tweak his sets so that Horford is finishing at the rim. Bud is taking Pop's sets, and instead of keeping Al near the paint like Pop does with his bigs, he obviously has Al floating out as a wing player, like he did with Pero.

 Pop will have Duncan pick and STAY PUT, Bud will pick and " Pop ", ironic, lol.  It will get you wins during the season, but in the playoffs, when teams run out and cover the wings, the Hawks only have Sap slicing to the basket. They need Al finishing the sets near the paint. That will spread the defense inside out instead of side to side like Bud prefers.....

You can make the comparison all day but Tim is one of the top 5 to 10 players in NBA history and Al is not. It doesn't mean Al is not elite but he's not Tim Duncan. Most NBA players aren't.

[NBASupes]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

That's the theory.   However, the Pistons of a few years ago won the championship without what I would call a great player.  Moreover , we were one of the last four teams standing last year without a great player.  Had we not be so injured, who knows.

 

That's what this team needs a 1st option who can score at will and defend well.  We are basically missing an elite offensive  player. That's nothing new. Maybe Melo is available for Sap or maybe we can get Durant but who knows. 

[Hawkmoor]

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

You can make the comparison all day but Tim is one of the top 5 to 10 players in NBA history and Al is not. It doesn't mean Al is not elite but he's not Tim Duncan. Most NBA players aren't.

WHY is Duncan elite? I really wasnt comparing the PLAYERS, just the system, but if you REALLY look at it, Duncan excels because Pops uses his strengths.  He keeps Duncan in a comfort range. Horford ISNT playing in his comfort range. Dude has been FORCED to play out of position his WHOLE career. Duncan is a 6 '11 power forward who gets to abuse other power forwards. Al is a 6'10 power forward who has to go up against guys who are bigger and taller than him on most nights.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Hawkmoor

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I can't say agree or disagree.  I will say he's elite but he's not an anchor in the way you may see him but he is. Truth is, he's not a rim protector or a 1st option on offense.  That's obvious. 

Argh, Supes you're killing me.  It sounds like you're saying he's an elite glue guy?  I can kinda see that if I squint really hard.  Elite anything else?  Nah, I just can't see it.

Where or how are you seeing him as elite?

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Argh, Supes you're killing me.  It sounds like you're saying he's an elite glue guy?  I can kinda see that if I squint really hard.  Elite anything else?  Nah, I just can't see it.

Where or how are you seeing him as elite?

He's not a glue guy in the traditional term. He's does a lot more than the term glue guy means. He is like 3M, he makes it better but he's not Sony or Samsung,  he doesn't make elite products.

 

Overall defensive,  offensive and overall versatility. 

I wrote a five page list on this years ago, it needs to be updated.  I think he is one of most special players I've seen in years regardless of team.

 

He does so much for winning Basketball. The issue I have is what you all have and he's not playing all out because he needs to avoid injury but without that,  he would be the same worthy of a max player. 

 

The love Noah got several years ago is what Horford should get daily.

Edited December 29, 2015 by NBASupes

[Gray Mule]

Now that Kobe is nearing the end of his NBA life, we all know there is but one player

who qualifies as an "Elite" player.

He carries his team.  He helps coach his team.  He assists the officials in calling the game.

They don't call him "King James" for nothing.

No other player in the NBA comes close to qualifying. 

[Sothron]

Horford has some things he absolutely does do at an elite level but he's definitely not an elite player overall.

[bumpyphish1]

22 hours ago, Lurker said:

He actually got 10 boards tonight, but for me an elite player has to be able to take over games on the offensive end, and average more than 15 points and 6ish boards a game.

And I fully see why he wouldn't be able to average more anyway. The guy has no post moves so you have to get it in deep for him to be able to score, can't create off of the dribble, and his offense is purely the pnr and pnp.

Good player, but he is not elite at all.

Calling out you for an ignorant and unnecessary post.

Actually LURK, please.

Edited December 30, 2015 by bumpyphish1

[AHF]

12 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

@AHF   uuummmmm????

That will teach me to try to insert a gif from my phone. 

Anyway...

 

Everyone

needs 

to....

 

 

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, AHF said:

That will teach me to try to insert a gif from my phone. 

Anyway...

 

Everyone

needs 

to....

 

 

@AHF C'mon maan.....now it's stuck in my head again after getting it out after Christmas Day, thanks!

[AHF]

Just now, JayBirdHawk said:

@AHF C'mon maan.....now it's stuck in my head again after getting it out after Christmas Day, thanks!

Maybe things will be better in summer?

 

[bumpyphish1]

5 3PT made 1/4 way into the 4th quarter.  Oh, and 23 points and 8 boards on 9/12 shooting.

Pristine timing for your mind-blowing thread.

[Atlantaholic]

Who the ish were you calling out again???