FINALLY. Bud says what some have been waiting to hear since June

[Thomas]

Willing to loosely put Bud in the mix of Richie Guerin, Mike Fratello and Lenny Wilkins. All had different situations and obstacles and all were seriously good coaches. Guerin had to insert himself into the playoff lineups so we could score and stay in it and Fratello had Bird, McHale, Parrish,Johnson, Ainge and others to face. You have to know that HOF lineups are hard to face and deal with, right? Different situations for all and they have all proven to be really good coaches but just can't say Bud is head and shoulders above any of them because of a sixty win season and then hit todays version of a brick wall in the East. Be serious or at the very least show some respect. The best playoff memories for most Hawks fans is that Bird/Nique playoff battle. It is part of the annals of the NBA's greatest lore. Thats not an exaggeration either.

[NBASupes]

10 hours ago, Diesel said:

Everything may be wrong with that. 

Giannis Adetokoubo was a 15 pick.    Gobert was 27.    The top three picks of that draft were :  Anthony, Oladipo, and Porter.

The next year 2014 had Wiggins, Parker, and Embiid as top three.. Whereas Clarkson (47)  Jokic (41) may be better.

2012:  Davis, Gilkrist, and Beal = Top three.     Whereas  Lillard (6), Crowder (34),  Green (35),  & Middleton (39) may be better. 

Never let me say that taking the top pick is death.  Usually, good thing happen in the top 3... but MKG???

Point is that the draft is a crap shoot.  Marvin Williams anybody?    You say nothing is wrong with that...  You haven't been a Hawks fan long enough...  Acie Law??  DeMarr Johnson??

 

How many Giannis have been drafted before and after Giannis? If your idea of not tanking is landing the next Giannis, you are more likely to land the next Bruno Cabolo. Scouts go all over the world looking for the next Embiid, Giannis and players of that ilk. That logic would have been worked for Atlanta but clearly, it hasn't. Atlanta had two chances at Gobert and took a center they traded a year later above him. Once again, saying these things happen means a lot when they NEVER happen to us. 

2012 draft proves how vital fit is. How good would Green have been in Atlanta where he would be forced to be an offensive weapon? Middleton was traded as a spare piece in a trade with Mil from DET. Crowder was a spare piece from DAL till BOS found use of him. So, I am not seeing your point? I know one thing, Lillard would be Lillard anywhere but he has a top 7 pick. Those tend to be picks where bad teams are located. Not sure why you mentioned him? With the exception of MKG, Beal and Davis have been exceptional. 

The same Marvin Williams draft, had one of the best PG's in NBA history, CP3. Guess who passed on him? Us. 

 

We have a great staff and now great management. Drafting is a priority for the first time in Atlanta's franchise history. We will do better than expected. I expect two to three future superstars from the next two drafts. 

 

 

 

[Thomas]

Great post Supes, though I'm still not sure of a specific definition for superstar. Always thought it had something to do with shoe sales. Am expecting at least two big time starters in the next two years though and with that in mind we would have a strong starting five. Just don't think we will be waiting five or more years to start measuring our progress in the playoffs as some are convinced of.  

[AHF]

I think BK made drafting a priority but unfortunately he wasn't very good at it.  I will agree with KB that there are no guarantees in the draft.  There is an element of luck that is very real and you have to be good at evaluating talent.  The guys who are fortunate enough to have the superstar talent on the board and who make the right calls (drafting Jordan and trading for the pick to take Pippen or drafting Curry, Thompson, Green, etc.) get to be contenders.  The ones who don't (Marvin, Sheldon, Law, etc.) cap themselves in non-contender status of various flavors.

We don't know what will happen and will have to see.  Schlenk is off to a great start and I hope he keeps it up but I recognize that it will take skill and luck to sustain that kind of drafting.

What it does hold open is the possibility that we will draft an MVP talent whereas resigning Sap, THJr, Howard, etc. would have left us capped out with a team that barely won 50% of their games and had no possibility of landing an MVP level player other than praying with super low % draft picks (no trade or free agent at that level would have been possible given our limited assets).

[aali34]

23 hours ago, Diesel said:

Everything may be wrong with that. 

Giannis Adetokoubo was a 15 pick.    Gobert was 27.    The top three picks of that draft were :  Anthony, Oladipo, and Porter.

The next year 2014 had Wiggins, Parker, and Embiid as top three.. Whereas Clarkson (47)  Jokic (41) may be better.

2012:  Davis, Gilkrist, and Beal = Top three.     Whereas  Lillard (6), Crowder (34),  Green (35),  & Middleton (39) may be better. 

Never let me say that taking the top pick is death.  Usually, good thing happen in the top 3... but MKG???

Point is that the draft is a crap shoot.  Marvin Williams anybody?    You say nothing is wrong with that...  You haven't been a Hawks fan long enough...  Acie Law??  DeMarr Johnson??

 

Schlenk is aware of that, he spoke about it in september

"Every draft when you go back and look at it in past years, there have been some where every guy in the top five were all All-Stars: The (2003) Lebron (James), Carmelo (Anthony), D-Wade (Dwyane Wade). And then there is some drafts when you look at the guys taken in the first four or five picks and none of them panned out. Or maybe there are guys in the middle of the rounds. So it’s really having the opportunities or, like I say, swings of the bat with picks. We have four picks in this year’s draft, three in the first round and one in the second. Having those four swings and hopefully getting three of them right. Like I mentioned, in Golden State we got Draymond (Green) at 35. Does it make it easier to get a player that can help your franchise at the top? Sure, you have a better chance but it’s not a guarantee for success."

Edited November 1, 2017 by aali34

[KB21]

6 minutes ago, aali34 said:

Schlenk is aware of that, he spoke about it in september

"Every draft when you go back and look at it in past years, there have been some where every guy in the top five were all All-Stars: The (2003) Lebron (James), Carmelo (Anthony), D-Wade (Dwyane Wade). And then there is some drafts when you look at the guys taken in the first four or five picks and none of them panned out. Or maybe there are guys in the middle of the rounds. So it’s really having the opportunities or, like I say, swings of the bat with picks. We have four picks in this year’s draft, three in the first round and one in the second. Having those four swings and hopefully getting three of them right. Like I mentioned, in Golden State we got Draymond (Green) at 35. Does it make it easier to get a player that can help your franchise at the top? Sure, you have a better chance but it’s not a guarantee for success."

So, he recognizes that, yet he still chose to go the tanking route in building this team.  That tells me he's not very bright.

[AHF]

18 hours ago, KB21 said:

Travis even slipped that he hopes to get 4 of the 5 picks right.  So, he's bragging about having these picks, and he admits that he may not get all of them right.  

I'd be super worried if he claimed he would get every pick right.  I cannot emphasize that enough.  For anyone to say they will never miss in the draft is delusional and that would be a great sign that person should not be your GM. 

Schlenk seems to have a very realistic attitude towards the draft.  Only someone who is intellectually dishonest would claim to know that a series of future picks will all be right or that none of them will work out. 

GS got some wrong during the string of lottery pick / 20-something win years when GS was drafting the core of their championship team.  I'm sure GS wishes they had drafted Paul George or Gordon Hayward instead of Ekpe Udoh with the 6th pick in 2010.  So why wouldn't even the best GM get some wrong and why wouldn't a GM who is being realistic acknowledge that?  

[KB21]

11 minutes ago, AHF said:

I'd be super worried if he claimed he would get every pick right.  I cannot emphasize that enough.  For anyone to say they will never miss in the draft is delusional and that would be a great sign that person should not be your GM. 

Schlenk seems to have a very realistic attitude towards the draft.  Only someone who is intellectually dishonest would claim to know that a series of future picks will all be right or that none of them will work out. 

GS got some wrong during the string of lottery pick / 20-something win years when GS was drafting the core of their championship team.  I'm sure GS wishes they had drafted Paul George or Gordon Hayward instead of Ekpe Udoh with the 6th pick in 2010.  So why wouldn't even the best GM get some wrong and why wouldn't a GM who is being realistic acknowledge that?  

It shows the tremendous flaw in relying upon the draft to build your team.

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, KB21 said:

It shows the tremendous flaw in relying upon the draft to build your team.

Time to put up, KB.  Name the NBA Champions that were constructed like the 2016-17 Hawks and won a ring while avoiding the lottery.  I'll wait.

[KB21]

23 minutes ago, AHF said:

Time to put up, KB.  Name the NBA Champions that were constructed like the 2016-17 Hawks and won a ring while avoiding the lottery.  I'll wait.

Essentially all of them.  Golden State is the only championship team that was truly built through the draft.  Cleveland wasn't really built because of lottery picks.  They were just fortunate enough that LeBron had sentimentality for the City of Cleveland.

The 2014 Spurs were not built with lottery picks.

The 2012-2013 Miami Heat were not built with lottery picks.

The 2011 Dallas Mavericks were not built with lottery picks.

Any of the Lakers championships were not built in the lottery.

The Celtics were not built through the lottery.

[aali34]

4 hours ago, KB21 said:

So, he recognizes that, yet he still chose to go the tanking route in building this team.  That tells me he's not very bright.

I read it differently. Basically, every draft has talented players. Although they are known to be at the top, you can find them also in the middle or at the bottom and the importance of having multiple "swings" in one draft is so that u have a better chance at hitting. This year we may have a top 5 pick, hopefully Minnesota's 15-20 pick and a late round pick. Instead of always trying to get the number one pick every year, get multiple picks in the same draft.

[noble]

19 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Essentially all of them.  Golden State is the only championship team that was truly built through the draft.  Cleveland wasn't really built because of lottery picks.  They were just fortunate enough that LeBron had sentimentality for the City of Cleveland.

The 2014 Spurs were not built with lottery picks.

The 2012-2013 Miami Heat were not built with lottery picks.

The 2011 Dallas Mavericks were not built with lottery picks.

Any of the Lakers championships were not built in the lottery.

The Celtics were not built through the lottery.

What? Spurs, Heat, Lakers all had top 5 picks on their teams they drafted. Not sure how you missed that.

The Celts hit a top 10 with Paul Pierce and he was able to get other Superstars to come to Boston.

The Mavs had a top 10 pick in Dirk.

Of all of the teams only maybe the Mavs could be a case in point. But you know what all the teams have in common? A Superstar picked in the top 10 that was able to pull OTHER Superstars together. Tell me the last time we had a player of that caliber that could have pulled other talent. When was the last time we even landed a real Superstar in free agency? Dwight? C'mon. Joe Johnson? Players weren't coming here even to play with Horford et al.

So what would you like for the team to do? Run the treadmill and pray? Or do something to try to get that Superstar this team has been starving for? The answer isn't clear, sure, but we tried the other way for a long time, why not try something else?

[AHF]

50 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Essentially all of them.  Golden State is the only championship team that was truly built through the draft.  Cleveland wasn't really built because of lottery picks.  They were just fortunate enough that LeBron had sentimentality for the City of Cleveland.

The 2014 Spurs were not built with lottery picks.

The 2012-2013 Miami Heat were not built with lottery picks.

The 2011 Dallas Mavericks were not built with lottery picks.

Any of the Lakers championships were not built in the lottery.

The Celtics were not built through the lottery.

Tim Duncan Lottery Pick - NBA and Finals MVP - In 2014, during the finals Duncan was #1 on the team in offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds, and blocks, #2 in points (behind Parker), #5 in assists.  He further led the team in both PER and Win Shares.  The Spurs have won exactly zero rings without him.

Dwayne Wade Lottery Pick - NBA Finals MVP - No rings without him.

Dirk Nowitzki Lottery Pick - NBA and Finals MVP - No rings without him.

Kobe Bryant Lottery Pick - NBA and Finals MVP - No rings without him (assuming you aren't talking Magic era or earlier).

Paul Pierce Lottery Pick, KG & Allen acquired by trading lottery picks - NBA Finals MVP - No rings without PP.

 

You cannot seriously be pretending that any of these teams won without the lottery.  Beyond that you haven't made the case that a single one of these teams was like the Hawks (who is our guy who is an MVP level player?) such that continuing down that path was a reasonable path to contender status.  Try again.

[Diesel]

13 hours ago, NBASupes said:

How many Giannis have been drafted before and after Giannis? If your idea of not tanking is landing the next Giannis, you are more likely to land the next Bruno Cabolo. Scouts go all over the world looking for the next Embiid, Giannis and players of that ilk. That logic would have been worked for Atlanta but clearly, it hasn't. Atlanta had two chances at Gobert and took a center they traded a year later above him. Once again, saying these things happen means a lot when they NEVER happen to us. 

2012 draft proves how vital fit is. How good would Green have been in Atlanta where he would be forced to be an offensive weapon? Middleton was traded as a spare piece in a trade with Mil from DET. Crowder was a spare piece from DAL till BOS found use of him. So, I am not seeing your point? I know one thing, Lillard would be Lillard anywhere but he has a top 7 pick. Those tend to be picks where bad teams are located. Not sure why you mentioned him? With the exception of MKG, Beal and Davis have been exceptional. 

The same Marvin Williams draft, had one of the best PG's in NBA history, CP3. Guess who passed on him? Us. 

 

We have a great staff and now great management. Drafting is a priority for the first time in Atlanta's franchise history. We will do better than expected. I expect two to three future superstars from the next two drafts. 

 

 

 

Good question.   None I suppose...  BUT, How many bad picks end up in the top three?

Here are the things that must be overcome:

• The NBA draft lottery is fixed.
• Lots of NBA GMs make bad decisions because their decisions are based on limited information. 
• Drafted players can end up injured or injury prone... Hello Greg Oden and Possibly Embiid.

So I can't applaud alienating the fanbase and turning off the free agents for what amounts to a crap shoot.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Tim Duncan Lottery Pick - NBA and Finals MVP - In 2014, during the finals Duncan was #1 on the team in offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds, and blocks, #2 in points (behind Parker), #5 in assists.  He further led the team in both PER and Win Shares.  The Spurs have won exactly zero rings without him.

Dwayne Wade Lottery Pick - NBA Finals MVP - No rings without him.

Dirk Nowitzki Lottery Pick - NBA and Finals MVP - No rings without him.

Kobe Bryant Lottery Pick - NBA and Finals MVP - No rings without him (assuming you aren't talking Magic era or earlier).

Paul Pierce Lottery Pick, KG & Allen acquired by trading lottery picks - NBA Finals MVP - No rings without PP.

 

You cannot seriously be pretending that any of these teams won without the lottery.  Beyond that you haven't made the case that a single one of these teams was like the Hawks (who is our guy who is an MVP level player?) such that continuing down that path was a reasonable path to contender status.  Try again.

All this is interesting.  But I looked at it from the other side.  Let's take the 2010 Hawks.

• J Teague = 19
• Kirk Hinrich = 7
• Mike Bibby = 2
• Joe Johnson = 10
• Josh Smith = 16
• Al Horford = 3
• Marvin Williams = 2
• Jamal Crawford = 8
• Jason Collins = 18
• Ethan Thomas = 12
• Jamal Crawford = 27

With a team full of lottery picks and 3 of them top 3 picks...  We finished with 44 wins.  We wasn't able to attract other free agents.   This is your Lottery Built Middling team that you want to deny can happen. does happen.  Happens most of the time. 

 

 

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

All this is interesting.  But I looked at it from the other side.  Let's take the 2010 Hawks.

• J Teague = 19
• Kirk Hinrich = 7
• Mike Bibby = 2
• Joe Johnson = 10
• Josh Smith = 16
• Al Horford = 3
• Marvin Williams = 2
• Jamal Crawford = 8
• Jason Collins = 18
• Ethan Thomas = 12
• Jamal Crawford = 27

With a team full of lottery picks and 3 of them top 3 picks...  We finished with 44 wins.  We wasn't able to attract other free agents.   This is your Lottery Built Middling team that you want to deny can happen. does happen.  Happens most of the time. 

 

 

Are you joking?  Who is the MVP talent on this team?  Just because Kwame Brown was taken in the same draft slot as Tim Duncan doesn't make them equal.  You have to actually hit on those picks and get MVP talent on your roster to win a ring - not just collect a few former lottery picks on their second and third teams and end up with a roster where your best players peak as borderline All-Stars reserves.

[MaceCase]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

Are you joking?  Who is the MVP talent on this team?  Just because Kwame Brown was taken in the same draft slot as Tim Duncan doesn't make them equal.  You have to actually hit on those picks and get MVP talent on your roster to win a ring - not just collect a few former lottery picks on their second and third teams and end up with a roster where your best players peak as borderline All-Stars reserves.

Nonsense, AHF.  The Hawks had not one but two MVP candidates on their 2011 squad in Stackhouse and McGrady and didn't see much improvement.  Oh wait, did you mean for them to be in their primes and not their mid to late 30s?

[Sothron]

5 hours ago, KB21 said:

So, he recognizes that, yet he still chose to go the tanking route in building this team.  That tells me he's not very bright.

Please stop feeding the .

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

Are you joking?  Who is the MVP talent on this team?  Just because Kwame Brown was taken in the same draft slot as Tim Duncan doesn't make them equal.  You have to actually hit on those picks and get MVP talent on your roster to win a ring - not just collect a few former lottery picks on their second and third teams and end up with a roster where your best players peak as borderline All-Stars reserves.

That's the argument indeed.  The Lottery is a big crapshoot.  It takes great LUCK to get an MVP talent in the lottery.  Yes... LUCK...  In fact, I would say that it may be as likely to get MVP talent other ways. 

For instance... On the horizon.

Greek Freek.

Isiah Thomas

Kawhi Leonard

Jimmy Butler

They all are on the cusp of being MVP ...  They are following the lead of Kobe, Stockton and Malone... as being mid to late first rounders who stepped up to that level. 

and not to mention that Paul Millsap, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, D Green, and Marc Gasol were all second round picks.  

So you bet the future on the lottery and you get Bargnani  or Darko or Marvin.....  Great.

 

[hazer]

1 hour ago, Sothron said:

Please stop feeding the troll.

Trolls, plural