Anti-tank-thread

[Watchman]

23 hours ago, StephenHawking said:

To all the anti-tank members on this forum. 

I have two questions for you.

What would you have done after last season and how would your roster look in 3 years?

Almost anything would look better than our roster in 3 years. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 hours ago, thecampster said:

What would I have done? In hindsight.

To answer this, you have to go back to "what you had". You had "a chance to sign THj". You had "a chance to sign Millsap". You had Dwight Howard on a 2 year contract.

1. I would have kept Dwight for 1 year. The Dwight contract becomes much more valuable and movable with 1 year left on on it, not 2. It would have been an expiring at the end of this season. The reason the value on Dwight's contract trade was so low is it had 2 years left on it. Anyone who doesn't understand 2 years of Dwight is better than 3 years of Plumlee just doesn't understand how contracts work.

2. I would have let Millsap walk without making the Crawford deal. The price tag was just too high.

3. I would have matched NY on THj. Timmy was/is younger than Baze and IMHO a much better mentor for Dorsey on how to adapt to the NBA game.

4. I would not have resigned Ersan (and this one would have hurt me to do) but effectively the combination of Ersan (rental), Plumlee (waste), Muscala (see below), Marco (rental), Crawford (to get a low 1st rounder) is $40 million in salary which would have been enough to keep Howard and Hardaway. In 1 year, that Howard expiring would become that same low 1st, high second draft pick to take someone else's longer contract and you'd still have Timmy. Anyone trying to say Ersan, Plumlee, Muscala, Marco, Crawford (2 of which have not or will play for the Hawks this year) is greater than Howard/Hardaway is smoking something more potent than Plumlee's weed.

5. I would have parted ways with Muscala and still signed Dedmon. 

6. Lastly, I would have found a buyer for Baze.  Teams called on Baze but the Hawks deemed the price too high. They valued their low 1st rounders too much of a price. If you have Tim, you don't need Baze.

In short, the roster difference could have been.

Back in: Howard (1 more year), THj + $17 million in salary cap space for signing free agents.

Out: Marco, Plumlee, Ersan, Muscala,Crawford, Baze and I really don't see how anyone can argue that the in would have been greater than the out in the short term or long term once you flip Howard's salary at season end.

And FYI, this is almost exactly what I said around Aug 1.

Not bad.

1) Agree.  Keep Dwight one more year.  Why offer him that contract, only to completely give up on him after one season?  He definitely wasn't the reason why we didn't progress further than what we did.  Bud playing Moose over Dwight in the playoffs was pure idiocy.  Not finding ways to keep Dwight involved in the action, even it it meant letting him shoot one or two 15 footers a game ( while the wings crashed the boards ), would've been better than not getting him involved at all.  Use Year 2 to see what we could've done better with him in the lineup, and utilize him better.

2) I think everyone on this site thought that Millsap would get the max, or near the max.  So if the price that could've secured Millsap here was 3/90 or 4/100, I would've matched that.  We talk all the time about free agents not wanting to come here.  Millsap wanted to explore his financial options, but his heart was definitely in Atlanta.  I think the Hawks get him for 4 yr / 100 mill.

Those 2 decisions almost guarantees that we're a top 15 defensive team.

 

3) While I would've loved to match THj, his playoff performance soured me on him. Had he performed to what he produced in the regular season, we win that series.  With Baze getting all of that money, it's pretty easy to pass on also paying THj

4) Ersan was another guy who nutted up during the playoffs, so I wouldn't have brought him back either, especially after drafting Collins.

5) Dedmon is a solid pickup, and would've been an ideal backup behind Dwight.  A much better option than Moose.

 

This is our frontcourt, by the way

PF - Millsap - Collins

C - Howard - Dedmon

 

6) I don't think there would be any buyers for Bazemore at that price, so the need would be to get a veteran shooter to add to the bench at the SG or SF position.  

7) Draft Frank Mason III and Sindarius Thornwell in the 2nd round.  The Dwight trade that just gave away the 31st pick, may have seen us give away a guy who could've been a damn good backup PG for Dennis, in Frank Mason III.  He's currently buried on the bench behind George Hill and De'aaron Fox in Sacramento.  But that guy can ball.  And Thornwell is another guy that was NBA ready.  He started his first game the other night for the Clippers.

 

PG - Schröder . . . G - Baze . . . F - Prince . . . PF - Millsap . . . C - Howard

PG - Mason III . . . G - Thornwell . . . F - Bembry . . . PF - Collins . . . C - Dedmon

 

I personally love the defensive potential of that lineup.   Possibly top 5 defensively.  And that bench would've been very good, even with the 2 rookies.  And if you still want to add guys like Babbitt, Cavanaugh, etc, to fill out the rest of the team, I don't have a problem with that.

Is that a championship level team?  No.  But I do think with all of the turnover in the East, this would be a top 4 team in the East, that could be in prime position to go higher if someone on Cleveland or Boston got injured.

 

[thecampster]

10 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Not bad.

1) Agree.  Keep Dwight one more year.  Why offer him that contract, only to completely give up on him after one season?  He definitely wasn't the reason why we didn't progress further than what we did.  Bud playing Moose over Dwight in the playoffs was pure idiocy.  Not finding ways to keep Dwight involved in the action, even it it meant letting him shoot one or two 15 footers a game ( while the wings crashed the boards ), would've been better than not getting him involved at all.  Use Year 2 to see what we could've done better with him in the lineup, and utilize him better.

2) I think everyone on this site thought that Millsap would get the max, or near the max.  So if the price that could've secured Millsap here was 3/90 or 4/100, I would've matched that.  We talk all the time about free agents not wanting to come here.  Millsap wanted to explore his financial options, but his heart was definitely in Atlanta.  I think the Hawks get him for 4 yr / 100 mill.

Those 2 decisions almost guarantees that we're a top 15 defensive team.

 

3) While I would've loved to match THj, his playoff performance soured me on him. Had he performed to what he produced in the regular season, we win that series.  With Baze getting all of that money, it's pretty easy to pass on also paying THj

4) Ersan was another guy who nutted up during the playoffs, so I wouldn't have brought him back either, especially after drafting Collins.

5) Dedmon is a solid pickup, and would've been an ideal backup behind Dwight.  A much better option than Moose.

 

This is our frontcourt, by the way

PF - Millsap - Collins

C - Howard - Dedmon

 

6) I don't think there would be any buyers for Bazemore at that price, so the need would be to get a veteran shooter to add to the bench at the SG or SF position.  

7) Draft Frank Mason III and Sindarius Thornwell in the 2nd round.  The Dwight trade that just gave away the 31st pick, may have seen us give away a guy who could've been a damn good backup PG for Dennis, in Frank Mason III.  He's currently buried on the bench behind George Hill and De'aaron Fox in Sacramento.  But that guy can ball.  And Thornwell is another guy that was NBA ready.  He started his first game the other night for the Clippers.

 

PG - Schröder . . . G - Baze . . . F - Prince . . . PF - Millsap . . . C - Howard

PG - Mason III . . . G - Thornwell . . . F - Bembry . . . PF - Collins . . . C - Dedmon

 

I personally love the defensive potential of that lineup.   Possibly top 5 defensively.  And that bench would've been very good, even with the 2 rookies.  And if you still want to add guys like Babbitt, Cavanaugh, etc, to fill out the rest of the team, I don't have a problem with that.

Is that a championship level team?  No.  But I do think with all of the turnover in the East, this would be a top 4 team in the East, that could be in prime position to go higher if someone on Cleveland or Boston got injured.

 

You just said the magic thing.  The playoffs are a crap shoot. Injuries, momentum, team cohesion all play a part. All you need is to be top 4 in your conference to have a shot of winning a championship.  You don't have to be the Warriors or Cavs for an entire season, you just need to show up for 16 out of 28 games come May/June.

[KB21]

16 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Not bad.

1) Agree.  Keep Dwight one more year.  Why offer him that contract, only to completely give up on him after one season?  He definitely wasn't the reason why we didn't progress further than what we did.  Bud playing Moose over Dwight in the playoffs was pure idiocy.  Not finding ways to keep Dwight involved in the action, even it it meant letting him shoot one or two 15 footers a game ( while the wings crashed the boards ), would've been better than not getting him involved at all.  Use Year 2 to see what we could've done better with him in the lineup, and utilize him better.

2) I think everyone on this site thought that Millsap would get the max, or near the max.  So if the price that could've secured Millsap here was 3/90 or 4/100, I would've matched that.  We talk all the time about free agents not wanting to come here.  Millsap wanted to explore his financial options, but his heart was definitely in Atlanta.  I think the Hawks get him for 4 yr / 100 mill.

Those 2 decisions almost guarantees that we're a top 15 defensive team.

 

3) While I would've loved to match THj, his playoff performance soured me on him. Had he performed to what he produced in the regular season, we win that series.  With Baze getting all of that money, it's pretty easy to pass on also paying THj

4) Ersan was another guy who nutted up during the playoffs, so I wouldn't have brought him back either, especially after drafting Collins.

5) Dedmon is a solid pickup, and would've been an ideal backup behind Dwight.  A much better option than Moose.

 

This is our frontcourt, by the way

PF - Millsap - Collins

C - Howard - Dedmon

 

6) I don't think there would be any buyers for Bazemore at that price, so the need would be to get a veteran shooter to add to the bench at the SG or SF position.  

7) Draft Frank Mason III and Sindarius Thornwell in the 2nd round.  The Dwight trade that just gave away the 31st pick, may have seen us give away a guy who could've been a damn good backup PG for Dennis, in Frank Mason III.  He's currently buried on the bench behind George Hill and De'aaron Fox in Sacramento.  But that guy can ball.  And Thornwell is another guy that was NBA ready.  He started his first game the other night for the Clippers.

 

PG - Schröder . . . G - Baze . . . F - Prince . . . PF - Millsap . . . C - Howard

PG - Mason III . . . G - Thornwell . . . F - Bembry . . . PF - Collins . . . C - Dedmon

 

I personally love the defensive potential of that lineup.   Possibly top 5 defensively.  And that bench would've been very good, even with the 2 rookies.  And if you still want to add guys like Babbitt, Cavanaugh, etc, to fill out the rest of the team, I don't have a problem with that.

Is that a championship level team?  No.  But I do think with all of the turnover in the East, this would be a top 4 team in the East, that could be in prime position to go higher if someone on Cleveland or Boston got injured.

 

I preferred Jawun Evans over Frank Mason, but I did like Mason quite a bit as well.  

[KB21]

Oh, I was also very high on Thornwell as well.  I definitely would have looked to add him.  

[KB21]

I mean, think about the potential collection of young talent that could have been getting developed on a winning team, hypothetically speaking: John Collins, Jawun Evans, Sindarius Thornwell, possibly draft picks like Grayson Allen and Ethan Happ in 2018 with two more first round picks in 2019.

[AHF]

2 hours ago, thecampster said:

You just said the magic thing.  The playoffs are a crap shoot. Injuries, momentum, team cohesion all play a part. All you need is to be top 4 in your conference to have a shot of winning a championship.  You don't have to be the Warriors or Cavs for an entire season, you just need to show up for 16 out of 28 games come May/June.

The NBA playoffs aren't even close to a crap shoot.  Teams like Memphis don't stand a chance versus the elites.  It is why you've been able to call that LeBron would be in the finals before the season has started for the better part of a decade.

The one and done NFL has much more uncertainty.  Hit pitching or goaltending can lead to major upsets in baseball or hockey.  The NBA is the absolute most easily predictable sport as far as champions.

[noble]

38 minutes ago, AHF said:

The NBA playoffs aren't even close to a crap shoot.  Teams like Memphis don't stand a chance versus the elites.  It is why you've been able to call that LeBron would be in the finals before the season has started for the better part of a decade.

The one and done NFL has much more uncertainty.  Hit pitching or goaltending can lead to major upsets in baseball or hockey.  The NBA is the absolute most easily predictable sport as far as champions.

This is the issue right here. I agree we could have gone into the season with a young team that would have made the playoffs had some different moves been made. Keeping Dwight a year, THJ, Sap, etc. But right here AHF hit the nail on the head. It would have been a decent team to make the playoffs, but not win a ring. We couldn't compete with elite. It would have taken injuries on about four teams to even think this was a possibility.

Now let's be clear I don't think tanking will be the magical formula for one, but the path we were on wasn't the way either. I'm not sure, if I am being honest, much could have been done to turn this team into a contender.

[thecampster]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

The NBA playoffs aren't even close to a crap shoot.  Teams like Memphis don't stand a chance versus the elites.  It is why you've been able to call that LeBron would be in the finals before the season has started for the better part of a decade.

The one and done NFL has much more uncertainty.  Hit pitching or goaltending can lead to major upsets in baseball or hockey.  The NBA is the absolute most easily predictable sport as far as champions.

Injuries are a bigger part of the NBA than any other sport. With only 5 players on the floor at a time, missing 1 player, 1 player hobbled changes a team's entire dynamic. This is why its a crap shoot.  Nothing is guaranteed in the NBA season. A Lebron, Curry, Harden, Westbrook injury at season's end changes the entire landscape.  You can't say that about football, baseball, etc.  Just be a team with home court and you have a better than average shot at the finals.

 

[Kimsey]

1. Millsap was great for the years he played in Atlanta. His knees seem to be petering out and it was time to let him go. I have confidence Bud and Schlenk can find an under the radar free agents like a JaMychal Green and get the most out their abilities.

2. The team has real cap space going forward to the tune of 30 to 40 million. More when some glorious day when Baze and Plumlee can be moved.  Dedmon is sure to opt out. He, Illy, Beli, Muscala will be involved in trade talks. 

3. Draft - the team should have 3 first round picks and a high 2nd rounder in one of the stronger drafts to date. It's good timing. Granted, the Houston pick doesn't look all too appealing. They have minimal depth and a key injury here and there is something to keep an eye on.

4. Young players - Prince has shown he score from range and inside. He struggles to find a rhythm, but if the light comes on, he'll be a solid piece going forward. Collins is basically Horford with a great motor. He never seems to perspire any, something I just notice about him. I need to see Bembry back healthy. His stats don't pop but he plays winning basketball. Schröder has exceeded his draft position. The team gets to see if the defacto "face of the franchise" is a worthwhile reign. I honestly don't like he's turned into a shoot first pg. I dislike ball sticking to his hands on nearly all his possesions and almost non existent defense. 

 

All in all, you can't really judge this team until a good year from now. Schlenk surely will be heavy in trade movement. There's multiple free agents to keep an watch on like Bradley, Favors, Jabari Parker, Noel, etc. 

[KB21]

This team can absolutely be evaluated right now based on the decision making process that got them to this point.  Tanking a team to the bottom of the league is a poor strategy.  History shows this, but this keeps getting ignored.  Because of this decision, this team will not be good anytime soon.

[Jeffery123]

On 11/13/2017 at 7:54 PM, Lurker said:

If you really want to blame it on someone, blame it on the people that got Danny Ferry shoved out because they got mad at him for saying that someone looked "African American like". BudCox failed. It's not Travis Schlenk's fault that Malcolm Delaney is here. It's not Travis Schlenk's fault that Kent Bazemore is a horrendous, unmovable contract. Maybe it is Travis Schlenk's fault for wasting a good second round pick with trading Dwight Howard instead of just telling coach to put him on the bench and for not at least giving it a whirl with Paul Millsap and trading him if it doesn't look great.

No, Danny Ferry got fired by presenting a racist stereotype to Luol Deng.  He chose to present what someone else stated.  "African American type....geeesh.

[AHF]

Looked African-American like?  That wasn't close to the issue.

[AHF]

The remark was talking not about his looks but his ethics and trustworthiness with the comment basically saying he was two faced like an ethnic merchant who will smile to your face then stab you in the back.  Ferry didn't write that but he read it.  That gave ammo to an owner in a power struggle who used it to publicly shame Ferry and the franchise to increase his personal power among the owners.

[thecampster]

I wanted to revive this thread at this time. Take a look back and look at the discussion that began a little less than a year ago and see the differences now.

[AHF]

2 hours ago, thecampster said:

I wanted to revive this thread at this time. Take a look back and look at the discussion that began a little less than a year ago and see the differences now.

I'd say the comment about the predictability of the playoffs still rings true after yet another GSW v LeBron finals.  There is uncertainty in every sport but the NBA playoffs are the most predictable of any major sport.

[macdaddy]

At least we won't have the Cavs in the finals this year, most likely.

[AHF]

30 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

At least we won't have the Cavs in the finals this year, most likely.

That isn't even a most likely.  100% guaranteed that if they make the playoffs they won't make the finals (unless their roster undergoes a complete overhaul between now and then).

[hazer]

9 minutes ago, AHF said:

That isn't even a most likely.  100% guaranteed that if they make the playoffs they won't make the finals (unless their roster undergoes a complete overhaul between now and then).

Here’s to hoping Cavs finish somewhere around 10th in the East ??

[yungsta]

All of the anti tanking plans I see relies on Millsap being injury free and  being an all star caliber players in his mid 30’s.

I’m glad we moved on. 2 years ago we were a Millsap injury or decline from being in the pistons/hornets territory.