Remind me again........Why did Collins fall in the draft?

[Wurider05]

What were the reasons this guy fell to us?  He has been solid from day one and is producing. What the hell happened?

[hazer]

GMs from about 9th pick back to Schlenkenholzer we’re dumbasses, but Schlenk wasn’t. Which gives me confidence in his judgement for these upcoming lottery picks. Some say “He fell right into Schlenk’s lap, it was a no-brainer.” BS, It was a no-brainer that fell into the 9th thru 18th GM’s laps too and they just didn’t have the acumen to pull the trigger. Actually, I heard that J-Bap fell because he doesn’t have the longest length, and Wake Forest didn’t have him playing much D because he was their lead scorer and they didn’t want him fouling out. Other’s misfortune our luck, he’s a Top 10 lottery pick by a looooong shot. The same kind of luck and GM recognition we’ll need in this year’s lottery.

Edited November 25, 2017 by hazer

[Diesel]

It was his defense. 

Quote

The biggest hurdles Collins will have to overcome in carving out an important niche at the NBA level will likely come on the defensive side of the ball, where he has some major strides to make with his feel and awareness. He looked hopelessly lost at times while struggling to read the floor, which led to him giving up bucket after bucket. He had a tough time moving in space to stay in front of dribble penetration or his man cutting to the rim and didn't always fight hard to get back into the play after he was beat, an issue that plagued Wake Forest's entire team last season.   He was in foul trouble throughout his two collegiate seasons, committing over four fouls per 40 minutes. This led him to be hesitant defensively to avoid staying out of foul trouble and in a smaller role, he will need to play with energy and no fear of fouling on each possession. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/John-Collins-76415/ ©DraftExpress

Right now, he's committing 6.1 fouls per 36 minutes... So let's not break out the champagne glasses yet. 

[hazer]

7 minutes ago, Diesel said:

It was his defense. 

Right now, he's committing 6.1 fouls per 36 minutes... So let's not break out the champagne glasses yet. 

In his first 20 games. “You don’t need to take any of those fouls home with you.”~Hubie Brown, to every Hawks C he coached...

[nathan2331]

 

It was his defense. 

 

 

The biggest hurdles Collins will have to overcome in carving out an important niche at the NBA level will likely come on the defensive side of the ball, where he has some major strides to make with his feel and awareness. He looked hopelessly lost at times while struggling to read the floor, which led to him giving up bucket after bucket. He had a tough time moving in space to stay in front of dribble penetration or his man cutting to the rim and didn't always fight hard to get back into the play after he was beat, an issue that plagued Wake Forest's entire team last season.   He was in foul trouble throughout his two collegiate seasons, committing over four fouls per 40 minutes. This led him to be hesitant defensively to avoid staying out of foul trouble and in a smaller role, he will need to play with energy and no fear of fouling on each possession. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/John-Collins-76415/ [emoji767]DraftExpress

 

 

Right now, he's committing 6.1 fouls per 36 minutes... So let's not break out the champagne glasses yet. 

 

 

 

His fouling has been an obvious problem, but it's not a big enough concern to justify him falling to us. Any decent coach in the NBA should be able to improve Collins defense over time. He makes quite a few mistakes but he impacts the game a lot more with his finishing around the rim and rebounding ability.

 

 

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[Diesel]

Just now, nathan2331 said:

Right now, he's committing 6.1 fouls per 36 minutes... So let's not break out the champagne glasses yet. 

His fouling has been an obvious problem, but it's not a big enough concern to justify him falling to us. Any decent coach in the NBA should be able to improve Collins defense over time. He makes quite a few mistakes but he impacts the game a lot more with his finishing around the rim and rebounding ability.

 

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I never said he was "failing" us.  somebody asked why did he fall in the draft.   This was the reason.  Just like his college career.. We love his offense but his defense definitely needs work.  That's just the story.  I'm good with having him because he's willing to learn.  Moreover, if this stays his achilles then at reup time, he can't ask for a gang of money...  Steph Curry Possibilities..

 

[nathan2331]

I never said he was "failing" us.  somebody asked why did he fall in the draft.   This was the reason.  Just like his college career.. We love his offense but his defense definitely needs work.  That's just the story.  I'm good with having him because he's willing to learn.  Moreover, if this stays his achilles then at reup time, he can't ask for a gang of money...  Steph Curry Possibilities..

 

I never said you said he was failing us. But if that's the story and you're right, there's 29 other teams that messed up not picking him or trading ahead of us to pick him. I think in 5 years people will look at Collins like Paul George going #13, he can be on that level if he develops a perimeter game.

 

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[Thomas]

Everyone who wanted a PF expected him to be able to hit threes or at least close to that, and that is not Collin's game as of yet. Collins poor reputation on the defensive side at Wake hurt his stock on draft night as well. Our big gain and their big loss.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

56 minutes ago, Thomas said:

Everyone who wanted a PF expected him to be able to hit threes or at least close to that, and that is not Collin's game as of yet. Collins poor reputation on the defensive side at Wake hurt his stock on draft night as well. Our big gain and their big loss.

The league is going crazy for big men who can shoot threes.  Fact is, most of those guys aren't even averaging 2 made threes per game.

[thecampster]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

The league is going crazy for big men who can shoot threes.  Fact is, most of those guys aren't even averaging 2 made threes per game.

Preach it. Give me a big with a solid post game, rebounding instincts and the ability to pass out of the post any day.

[CP61]

Yeah his defense is a problem, but honestly even if he’s never a good or even passable defender, he’s still pretty valuable. He’s just too good of a scorer to have fallen out of the lottery, hell even the top 10. I think he’s got the tools to be at least a passable defender since he gives all the effort. 

[hazer]

His defense will be fine, eventually. Hell, if Kyle Korver can average more blocks on a season than Greg Monroe (yup, look it up), J-Bap can develop into at least a serviceable defender under Bud’s tutelage.

[KB21]

The biggest reason John fell in the draft is a system wide problem in the league.  Bad teams value potential over production, and that's where mistakes are made and players like John Collins get drafted later than they should.  Kyle Kuzma is the same way.   It's why bad teams stay bad.

It's notable that there are only 3 top 10 picks who are currently in the top 15 among rookies in win shares this year: Jayson Tatum, Lauri Markkanen, and Jonathan Isaac, not counting Ben Simmons who was drafted last year and got a red shirt year.

[hazer]

On 11/25/2017 at 5:07 PM, Diesel said:

It was his defense. 

Right now, he's committing 6.1 fouls per 36 minutes... So let's not break out the champagne glasses yet. 

 

On 11/25/2017 at 5:16 PM, hazer said:

In his first 20 games. “You don’t need to take any of those fouls home with you.”~Hubie Brown, to every Hawks C he coached...

He won’t be playing more than 36 mins, and he has 6 fouls to give. And needs to dish all of them out. So what’s the problem?

[Sothron]

It is what everyone has said. He was a terrible defender in college. He has no outside game when everyone in the NBA wants 4 and 5's to be shooting three pointers. He also does not have good length for his size. You add that up and I can see why teams passed on  him. I think they were nuts because his actual production numbers literally jumped off the page.

It should comfort our two resident tro...worry warts that Schlenk ignored all of the scout talk and took him with our pick. Our gm and staff looked at the production and saw a gem in the draft. Collins was easily the steal of the draft. Every redraft article I've seen has him going in the top five, usually top three.

 

[hazer]

17 minutes ago, Sothron said:

It should comfort our two resident tro...worry warts that Schlenk ignored all of the scout talk and took him with our pick. Our gm and staff looked at the production and saw a gem in the draft. Collins was easily the steal of the draft. Every redraft article I've seen has him going in the top five, usually top three.

 

It’s okay, just say it, and repeat after me: “The Miserable Ones.” And  Schlenkholzer judgement/gut vs conventional wisdom with J-Bap, score (very first) one for The Colonel. Snagged a Top 5 lottery pick with his inaugural choice at 19th. Btw, Collins has a shooting touch and his D will be just fine after Hawks U. Speaking of which, it wasn’t just Kenny and Quinn, look what they’ve already done with Deadmon Walking, not to mention our 3-pt %.

Edited November 26, 2017 by hazer

[hazer]

All the talk of finding a lottery talent in the late teens by those saying we don’t need to be in the lottery, giving no props to Schlenkholzer for already doing just that with his very first pick. Naaaaa, has no clue what he’s doing. Just luck then? Already showing he has that too then.

Edited November 27, 2017 by hazer

[benhillboy]

I think the “poor defense”excuse for the GMs is a cop-out.  The only defense they’re really concerned with is the fashionable 3-and-D wing role players, many don’t get sound defense from their star players.  There’s only a handful of Draymond, Noel types who can consistently defend near the arc and rim so don’t act like it’s a weakness for a college player when you’re looking at an advanced Screen and Roll talent, relentless attacker and pure rebounder at the position.  Intelligence, good stock, and hard work doesn’t push you up the draft board either apparently.

At the end of the day these GMs just aren’t very good.  Now they check his PER and he’s between a defensive wiz in Adams and offensive one in Vucevic, the only rookie getting minutes who can think about being in a class with the Top 50 alongside Simmons.  I saw from just his floor awareness in Summer League he was gonna be at least a good starter.  Now we see he’s gonna be considerably more.

Edited November 27, 2017 by benhillboy

[thecampster]

In his first 2 seasons in the league (age 19/20), Josh Smith average 10.5 pts, 6.4 rebounds on 44% shooting.  Collins is sitting at 11.5, 7.1 on 58% shooting.  I think the kid will be okay.

[AHF]

I think the defensive worry for him was college performance combined with his relative lack of length.  Lack of range with lack of length meant lack of interest.