Does Dennis Want Out?

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, Buzzard said:

The move up from 6 to 3 is the big value to me. But I still don't think they do it. I think Orlando got out of the we only need one player mode after they moved Serge to Toronto. What a fiasco trading for Serge was. Olydipo was probably the most improved player last year.

I also think Presti finally blew a trade by taking on George short term for Olydipo and Sabonis.

???

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 5/25/2018 at 11:34 AM, Buzzard said:

He talked to the German media and brought up going to other teams. No one did this but him. Confidence is great but when he shoots under .300 from the three point line, maybe he should temper that until he can actually shoot as well as most NBA Point Guards. Now throw in the fact he had one of the worse assist to turn over ratios of any starting PG in the NBA and you can see why some of us who want Dennis to be an All-Star are beginning to have serious doubts. All the court bullying drama aside his performance on the basketball court needs to improve substantially. 

I get you love Dennis; but stats are stats and facts are facts. Everything I highlighted in the above paragraph is a fact with nothing added due to me being biased to wanting Dennis to succeed.

Let's back up for a minute though.  Most of the fan base wanted this team to tank . . and tank hard.  If Dennis played anywhere near what people expected him to play at, he would've been attacked . . . like he was in November, when he was straight balling.

We stripped this team almost to the bare bones.  We took away the defensive leader and most versatile player on the team.  We took away the big man who he could at least get 2 assists a game to via lobs.  We took away two of the team's best outside shooters in mid season.  And we flat out employed a strategy in which the team was encouraged to play hard, but lose.

And we wonder why Dennis' numbers were down?

Just 1 year ago, he was doing this . . . remember?

 

It is not Dennis' fault that the new GM decided to hit the reset button.  And you really can't blame Dennis for feeling some type of way, when he finally becomes one of the stars on the team, that the organization decides to blow it all up.  Put him on a team like Milwaukee, and he might make the All-Star team, playing with an athletic freak like Giannis.

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

And they took away one of his best buddies on the team, in Tim Hardaway Jr.

[Plainview1981]

3 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Let's back up for a minute though.  Most of the fan base wanted this team to tank . . and tank hard.  If Dennis played anywhere near what people expected him to play at, he would've been attacked . . . like he was in November, when he was straight balling.

We stripped this team almost to the bare bones.  We took away the defensive leader and most versatile player on the team.  We took away the big man who he could at least get 2 assists a game to via lobs.  We took away two of the team's best outside shooters in mid season.  And we flat out employed a strategy in which the team was encouraged to play hard, but lose.

And we wonder why Dennis' numbers were down?

Just 1 year ago, he was doing this . . . remember?

 

It is not Dennis' fault that the new GM decided to hit the reset button.  And you really can't blame Dennis for feeling some type of way, when he finally becomes one of the stars on the team, that the organization decides to blow it all up.  Put him on a team like Milwaukee, and he might make the All-Star team, playing with an athletic freak like Giannis.

 

C'mon.... Dennis isn't playing anything like that over the course of a full season. He is inefficient.... He scores on low percentages and he doesn't really make his teammates better. He should be a 6th man. He is pretty much another Reggie Jackson.

 

[Plainview1981]

It sucks for him that he was put in a position that is above his head... He is a 6th man Crawford type of scorer at his best.

Btw, what happened to the edit post function? Is it gone for good?

[Buzzard]

6 hours ago, Diesel said:

???

I thought you were responding to this:

18 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

Hawks get: Jonathan Isaac+ Terrence Ross (flip later)  + 6th pick(2018) + 2019 1st round pick (top 2 protected).

Magic get: Dennis Schröder + 3rd pick

??

 

 

would you?

Which includes a swap of 3 for 6 this year.

[Jungle Jack]

Not loving the idea of seeing Dennis lace up for the Hornets for the forceesable future.  Unlike forecasting which of the kids are going to be a superstar, kinda digging guessing on where Dennis goes or if we swing for the Crown Jewel of Tanking......Evan Turner.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 5/27/2018 at 3:16 AM, Plainview1981 said:

C'mon.... Dennis isn't playing anything like that over the course of a full season. He is inefficient.... He scores on low percentages and he doesn't really make his teammates better. He should be a 6th man. He is pretty much another Reggie Jackson.

 

Dennis in 2016 - 17 actually had a pretty good season.

18 ppg - 6 assists - 3 rebs . . . 45% FG - 34% 3FG

He was arguably a top 15 PG in that season.  And he still is this season, despite the decrease in 3 point percentage. 

He has shown improvement in his game in each of his previous 4 seasons.  But I said flat out even before the season started, that Dennis should not be judged on this season, seeing that the organization basically took the top 3 players on the team away from him.   

 

 

[KB21]

19 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Dennis in 2016 - 17 actually had a pretty good season.

18 ppg - 6 assists - 3 rebs . . . 45% FG - 34% 3FG

He was arguably a top 15 PG in that season.  And he still is this season, despite the decrease in 3 point percentage. 

He has shown improvement in his game in each of his previous 4 seasons.  But I said flat out even before the season started, that Dennis should not be judged on this season, seeing that the organization basically took the top 3 players on the team away from him.   

 

 

You aren't using the correct numbers to evaluate Dennis.  Those counting stats are nice, but they mean very little overall.  His efficiency numbers did take a step forward in 2016-2017, but they went back down to his career normal in 2017-2018.  He is what he is.  I knew letting Millsap go would have a negative effect on Dennis's development, but it's very clear to me that Dennis will not be a part of this team when it is good again.  His contract will be up before that, and I think it is likely that he is moved this off season.  Knowing Travis Schlenk's horrific negotiating skills, Atlanta may get a 2nd round pick for him.

[nathan2331]

 

 

You aren't using the correct numbers to evaluate Dennis.  Those counting stats are nice, but they mean very little overall.  His efficiency numbers did take a step forward in 2016-2017, but they went back down to his career normal in 2017-2018.  He is what he is.  I knew letting Millsap go would have a negative effect on Dennis's development, but it's very clear to me that Dennis will not be a part of this team when it is good again.  His contract will be up before that, and I think it is likely that he is moved this off season.  Knowing Travis Schlenk's horrific negotiating skills, Atlanta may get a 2nd round pick for him.

 

You just confirmed his point, with worse teammates his efficiency went down. It's not good, but it's certainly not unplayable. Dennis has lot of flaws, but they are all fixable to some degree. He's not a bad PG, and could definitely approach top 10 in the position in a different situation. I don't think a guy like Kemba Walker is streets ahead of Dennis. Considering Dennis has killed most of the value he does have, we might as well keep him so long as he isn't destructive.

[KB21]

21 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

 

 

 

 

You just confirmed his point, with worse teammates his efficiency went down. It's not good, but it's certainly not unplayable. Dennis has lot of flaws, but they are all fixable to some degree. He's not a bad PG, and could definitely approach top 10 in the position in a different situation. I don't think a guy like Kemba Walker is streets ahead of Dennis. Considering Dennis has killed most of the value he does have, we might as well keep him so long as he isn't destructive.

He will never be a top 10 point guard in the NBA.  Even in his best year, he was bottom 10 among starters.

[nathan2331]

He will never be a top 10 point guard in the NBA.  Even in his best year, he was bottom 10 among starters.

You really think there are 20 better PGs better than Dennis? That's just not true. Wasn't he 15th overall in assists this year among all players? But if that's your opinion Im not going to go through the trouble of changing it.

[Spud2nique]

Just now, nathan2331 said:

35 minutes ago, KB21 said:

He will never be a top 10 point guard in the NBA.  Even in his best year, he was bottom 10 among starters.

 

You really think there are 20 better PGs better than Dennis? That's just not true. Wasn't he 15th overall in assists this year among all players? But if that's your opinion Im not going to go through the trouble of changing it.

Dennis is a top 15 point guard to me. Unfortunately,  we won’t get that value in a trade. If we get a 12-15 pick in this year’s draft for Dennis we hit a homer in my mind.

 

He and Baze are essentially the last pieces of our last era. Both will be gone by February at the latest in my opinion.

[KB21]

Dennis was 55th among point guards in RPM during his best season.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

25 minutes ago, KB21 said:

You aren't using the correct numbers to evaluate Dennis.  Those counting stats are nice, but they mean very little overall.  His efficiency numbers did take a step forward in 2016-2017, but they went back down to his career normal in 2017-2018.  He is what he is.  I knew letting Millsap go would have a negative effect on Dennis's development, but it's very clear to me that Dennis will not be a part of this team when it is good again.  His contract will be up before that, and I think it is likely that he is moved this off season.  Knowing Travis Schlenk's horrific negotiating skills, Atlanta may get a 2nd round pick for him.

Of course they went back down in 2017 - 2018.  I can't even count the number of possessions where Dennis had to play "hero ball" at the end of the shot clock, because no one else could create their own shot.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

10 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Dennis was 55th among point guards in RPM during his best season.

Post the link where you got this stat from, and lets go through those other 54 PGs who had a better RPM.

Let's see how many of those we'd take over Dennis.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Advanced stats cannot be used to justify a player's worth in all cases, because high usage starters have different roles than low usage / specialty players.

You'll end up with a situation in which Terry Rozier is trying to do the same things that Kyrie Irving does.  

[KB21]

5 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Post the link where you got this stat from, and lets go through those other 54 PGs who had a better RPM.

Let's see how many of those we'd take over Dennis.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2017/sort/RPM/position/1

You may have to sort the RPM column.

[nathan2331]

What KB21 said is true, but RPM also had Paul Millsap as the second best PF ahead of Anthony Davis and Giannis. I'm not sure how the stat is calculated, but it doesn't look like a good measure of ability.

 

I'd take a look at the estimated wins added, I think that's a better way to rank PGs. Dennis is tied for 14 on thw list from this year.

 

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg/sort/VORPe

[nathan2331]

What KB21 said is true, but RPM also had Paul Millsap as the second best PF ahead of Anthony Davis and Giannis. I'm not sure how the stat is calculated, but it doesn't look like a good measure of ability.

 

I'd take a look at the estimated wins added, I think that's a better way to rank PGs. Dennis is tied for 14 on thw list from this year.

 

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg/sort/VORPe

Just to add on, EWA doesn't take defense into consideration, and I do recognize Dennis is an abysmal defender. However I believe folks recognize Dennis is at least a decent defender when he puts in the effort.

 

That of course is part of the problem, but considering the circumstances I'm not surprised he doesn't go 100% on that end of the court when our objective is to get a high draft pick. I think if he and the coach/GM can get on the same page, he can be our starting PG for the next few years. I believe within the next two years there is enough talent that can turn our franchise around. We only need one more player after this year, and we'll have cap space to add to the roster.