Game Theory Podcast (Sam Veceni): 50 plus minutes of Hawks talk

[kg01]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

Sam also clearly said the Zion stuff in a joking manner because he was basically discussing the excitement of having John Collins and Zion dunking off Trae Young's passes.  Cole brought up how Nasir Little was a better overall fit, and Sam was like "of course".  

They also both believe that Trae Young and RJ Barrett together would be "fun".  

Yeah I got that.  I just preferred to be outraged.

27 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Being a number one option is not the reason he loses his focus on defense at times.  That's nothing more than an excuse, and I'm not real certain where that baloney excuse originated.  He loses his focus because he has never been pushed by the coaching he has received to this point, and guess what?  He's not going to be pushed at Duke either.  Sorry, @falconfan13.  That's one of the big problems with these AAU products.  The AAU circuit does nothing to exploit these young players for the shoe companies.  AAU coaches breathe sweet nothings into their ears and tell them how great they are, and when it comes to pushing them and developing their skills, they get absolutely nothing at that level.  

Spot on.  It's a new age excuse most have simply accepted.  It's propaganda.  And, for the reasons you said, they rarely learn defensive fundamentals. 

[KB21]

9 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Yeah I got that.  I just preferred to be outraged.

Spot on.  It's a new age excuse most have simply accepted.  It's propaganda.  And, for the reasons you said, they rarely learn defensive fundamentals. 

My post should have said the AAU circuit does nothing BUT exploit these young players for the shoe companies.

[nathan2331]

I agree with all the negatives folks have pointed out about Zion, but you can't teach his athleticism. I'm not saying he should go #1 yet or we should even consider him with our highest pick, but I wouldn't mind taking him on as a project unless he shows absolutely nothing skillwise at Duke.

[EazyRoc]

25 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

I agree with all the negatives folks have pointed out about Zion, but you can't teach his athleticism. I'm not saying he should go #1 yet or we should even consider him with our highest pick, but I wouldn't mind taking him on as a project unless he shows absolutely nothing skillwise at Duke.

He still has a lot to show which is why Duke isn’t a good place for him IMO. I agree with KB in that Coach K isn’t really developing guys anymore. He’s yet to define his position and show the perimeter skills necessary for the 3. He isn’t going to learn much defensively playing under Coach K and especially not enough to give people enough confidence that he can man the 4. Who do you all think is the best coach at developing players at the college level ?

[sturt]

7 hours ago, kg01 said:

Right.  Those fries ain't gonna drop themselves.

Honest day of work.... don't knock it till you try it. :D

 

[kg01]

18 hours ago, sturt said:

Honest day of work.... don't knock it till you try it. :D

 

I'll pass.  You tax paying schmucks are taking good care of me, right?

[Spud2nique]

1 minute ago, kg01 said:

I'll pass.  You tax paying schmucks are taking good care of me, right?

@kg01 is it cool if I take the day off today? It’s saturday I need a blow.

Plus I’m rich and  boujee..

[kg01]

14 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

@kg01 is it cool if I take the day off today? It’s saturday I need a blow.

Plus I’m rich and  boujee..

Dude, if you take the day off, I might actually have to work some.  I prefer you keep on the grind so I can keep lounging. 

Thanks.

[Spud2nique]

26 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Dude, if you take the day off, I might actually have to work some.  I prefer you keep on the grind so I can keep lounging. 

Thanks.

? work work work work work

 

[sillent]

On 8/3/2018 at 2:49 PM, JayBirdHawk said:

Good grief - he's a mack truck. That weight can't be sustainable for playing over a long time can it? Regardless of how athletic he is?

Tell that to LeBron/Barkley/Malone. Some people manage their weight/size well.

22 hours ago, nathan2331 said:

I agree with all the negatives folks have pointed out about Zion, but you can't teach his athleticism. I'm not saying he should go #1 yet or we should even consider him with our highest pick, but I wouldn't mind taking him on as a project unless he shows absolutely nothing skillwise at Duke.

 

[KB21]

Unless Zion shows marked skill improvement, and maybe not even then, Travis Schlenk is not going to be interested in him.  We have a history of Golden State drafts and a limited sample of his drafts in Atlanta, but it is very clear that Travis values skill over athleticism.  

The issue with almost everyone of the prospects who are projected to go at the top of the 2019 draft is their lack of skill development to this point.  RJ Barrett is currently working with Drew Hanlen on the side to develop his jump shot.  Cameron Reddish needs to become more consistent as a jump shooter.  Nasir Little still has development to go with his jumper.  Zion can't shoot outside 5 feet from the basket.  

I think the guy Travis is going to be looking at hard is Jontay Porter, who is 6'11" and can really shoot, pass, and defend his position.  

[nathan2331]

Unless Zion shows marked skill improvement, and maybe not even then, Travis Schlenk is not going to be interested in him.  We have a history of Golden State drafts and a limited sample of his drafts in Atlanta, but it is very clear that Travis values skill over athleticism.  

The issue with almost everyone of the prospects who are projected to go at the top of the 2019 draft is their lack of skill development to this point.  RJ Barrett is currently working with Drew Hanlen on the side to develop his jump shot.  Cameron Reddish needs to become more consistent as a jump shooter.  Nasir Little still has development to go with his jumper.  Zion can't shoot outside 5 feet from the basket.  

I think the guy Travis is going to be looking at hard is Jontay Porter, who is 6'11" and can really shoot, pass, and defend his position.  

I don't really see the point in us pursuing Porter when we already have Spellman who has a pretty similar skillset. Porter might be a superior playmaker, but I believe Spellman is underrated in that regard. We'd be better pursuing Barrett, Reddish, or Little even if their jumpshot is lacking.

[DBac]

I think the Hawks are gonna pick whoever projects as the best shot creator at the next level. Hopefully Coach K doesn't ice Reddish out.

[DrReality]

On 8/3/2018 at 10:45 AM, kg01 said:

That's one way to put it.  Hope you made a full recovery.

Now that I'm into the current player stuff, this is getting really annoying.  The Sam guy is super arrogant.

Agree on these dudes having tunnel vision of sorts.

They over-use analytics and get too caught up on what they 'think' a player is (I refuse to say 'archetype').  Like, "Wait, all you are is a 3-n-D guy, stop trying to play-make."

And how is Taurean over-rated (which they both agreed on)?

They wouldn’t know an archetype if it bit them in the ass. 

[RedDawg#8]

Sometimes people get so caught up in the Anti-Hype, that you start under valuing players. It’s easy to do in basketball because it’s more likely than not a player won’t have instant success or become the next best player. It’s rare to get Steph Curry’s and Dwayne Wades and even more rare to get KD and Lebron’s.

That being said, Zion is a lot better player than he is getting credit for. Yeah he was a HS phenom and dominated lesser/smaller competition but that’s what you want from a player. Dominate the competition in front of you. He has to do it on the next level now which remains to be seen. But he has some things going for himself.

His numbers are off the charts athletically. He just set Dukes vertical leap record at his heavy size. (Should we go through the list of all the Duke greats that he was able to out jump?) He obviously is still growing as he went from 6-6 272, to 6-7 285. And as big as he is he still wears it very well.

I think once he becomes a pro and gets world class nutrition and training he will eventually get down to 250 or so. Lebron is a great example of how your body can transform over time. He went from being the biggest strongest guy on the floor to a very trim body build here in his later years which improved his longevity.

But, let’s say the kid doesn’t slim down too much and stays relatively big. Well, there’s this guy Charles Barkley  who made a career despite being on the husky side most years and the way Zion moves with his size really reminds me of ole Chucky out there. Funny thing too, Zion is taller than Charles and actually could play PF in today’s NBA if he wanted. 

I say all this to say, it’s too early to write a kid like him off just because he is hyped up over his dunks. He is a solid prospect with basketball talent and attributes that will continue developing over time.

Same goes for any teenager. Most of these players won’t be close to their true potential until age 25. In other words, it’s way too early to write any HS prospect off as overhyped. Let’s see what he does this season at Duke

[kg01]

NBA-caliber athletes are a dime-a-dozen.  NBA-caliber athletes who possess actual basketball acumen and skill are not.  Right now, Williamson is simply an NBA-caliber athlete.

The issue is (a) what will he be by the time we have to match a rFA offer for him (i.e. have to pay real money) and (b) are the other guys in his draft class that project ot be further along.

I don't see anything at this point that suggests he'll be a high level basketball player when it matters and there are several guys who appear to be further along.

Nobody's anti-hyping the kid.  Simply viewing him in a basketball lens in addition to a 'oh man he can jump high' lens.

[KB21]

6 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Sometimes people get so caught up in the Anti-Hype, that you start under valuing players. It’s easy to do in basketball because it’s more likely than not a player won’t have instant success or become the next best player. It’s rare to get Steph Curry’s and Dwayne Wades and even more rare to get KD and Lebron’s.

That being said, Zion is a lot better player than he is getting credit for. Yeah he was a HS phenom and dominated lesser/smaller competition but that’s what you want from a player. Dominate the competition in front of you. He has to do it on the next level now which remains to be seen. But he has some things going for himself.

His numbers are off the charts athletically. He just set Dukes vertical leap record at his heavy size. (Should we go through the list of all the Duke greats that he was able to out jump?) He obviously is still growing as he went from 6-6 272, to 6-7 285. And as big as he is he still wears it very well.

I think once he becomes a pro and gets world class nutrition and training he will eventually get down to 250 or so. Lebron is a great example of how your body can transform over time. He went from being the biggest strongest guy on the floor to a very trim body build here in his later years which improved his longevity.

But, let’s say the kid doesn’t slim down too much and stays relatively big. Well, there’s this guy Charles Barkley  who made a career despite being on the husky side most years and the way Zion moves with his size really reminds me of ole Chucky out there. Funny thing too, Zion is taller than Charles and actually could play PF in today’s NBA if he wanted. 

I say all this to say, it’s too early to write a kid like him off just because he is hyped up over his dunks. He is a solid prospect with basketball talent and attributes that will continue developing over time.

Same goes for any teenager. Most of these players won’t be close to their true potential until age 25. In other words, it’s way too early to write any HS prospect off as overhyped. Let’s see what he does this season at Duke

His athleticism is great.  His skill level is putrid.  I have a hard time seeing him succeeding in the NBA at his current skill level.  

Skill level trumps athleticism.

[nathan2331]

If all Zion was doing was dunking, y'all would be right. He's got some moves with the ball in his hands. He needs to start shooting the ball effectively, but even if he never does, it doesn't mean he can't play at all. Dude is a force in the paint though and he'll probably be able to use his size and athleticism to bully a lot of NBA players. His skill level for a PF is fine, not elite by any means but there's plenty of time for him to develop a legitimate post game. It'll be interesting to see just how well that Duke team plays together, but I don't see why anyone should write him off right now.

[kg01]

12 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

If all Zion was doing was dunking, y'all would be right. He's got some moves with the ball in his hands. He needs to start shooting the ball effectively, but even if he never does, it doesn't mean he can't play at all. Dude is a force in the paint though and he'll probably be able to use his size and athleticism to bully a lot of NBA players. His skill level for a PF is fine, not elite by any means but there's plenty of time for him to develop a legitimate post game. It'll be interesting to see just how well that Duke team plays together, but I don't see why anyone should write him off right now.

I don't think I'm writing him off totally.  I'm more so saying that there are far better options for us.

Also, I don't want to see an offense depending on a 6'7" dude in the post.  I'm also down on the notion that, after a half-year at Duke, he'll be a markedly different player than he is right now.  I get it, coach Krydsl3234ski invented competitive sports and all but I think we've got to be real here.  That's not long enough for anyone to make a real difference and a pretty strong argument can be made that Duke bigs don't get better anyway.

All the K worshipers can save the slings and arrows.

[nathan2331]

 

 

I don't think I'm writing him off totally.  I'm more so saying that there are far better options for us.

Also, I don't want to see an offense depending on a 6'7" dude in the post.  I'm also down on the notion that, after a half-year at Duke, he'll be a markedly different player than he is right now.  I get it, coach Krydsl3234ski invented competitive sports and all but I think we've got to be real here.  That's not long enough for anyone to make a real difference and a pretty strong argument can be made that Duke bigs don't get better anyway.

All the K worshipers can save the slings and arrows.

 

You said you "don't see anything at this point that suggests he'll be a high level basketball player when it matters". That's not writing him off?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Coach K fan, and I don't think Duke or any other university is some magical institution that's gonna make him a star NBA player. But Zion has got a lot of things going for him even if his athleticism is a big part of that. He's a very good rebounder and he's a shot blocker despite being undersized. He's got handles and passing ability considering he hit a late growth spurt and was a PG beforehand. I don't think he's particularly skilled, but it's still better than most big men. The shot needs to come along if he wants to be a superstar, but if he puts the work in I don't see why he won't improve his deficiencies.

 

Like I said before, I wouldn't want him at #1 necessarily considering the other prospects available, but if he's on the board at the Mavs/Cavs pick or we could trade back up for him, I'd like to see us make the move. Obviously we'll have to see how the college season plays out.