So what Coach then ?

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, AtLaS said:

Correct, Heurter is no stud by any means.  But him being out means more minutes for our scrubs which really hurts the team.

I agree with 100% but this narrative that we are without two of our best three players makes me like wtf! No, not at all. Hunter and Trae is playing right?

Edited December 3, 2019 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

18 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Hunter and Cam should be the 4th and 5th options as far as impact players go (and you can make a case for 5th and 6th options).

Should be;

Trae

Bonehead

Jabari off the bench

Kev

Capable C

Hunter

Cam

Then guys like D. Jones, Bruno, and Bembry as backups and guys like Vince, Crabbe, and Turner as bit role bench players.

BUT.....instead we have no Bonehead (his own fault), No Kev (Olaf from Denver fault), and No Center (Schlenk's fault) and so we have Hunter as the 3rd option and Cam as the 4th option for an impact player.  More than that though, now guys like Vince and Bembry are being asked to be 4th and 5th options when they should be WAAAAAAY down the list role players.  

There's nothing LP can realistically do until he gets Bonehead and Kev back, a legit C and the rookies grow up.       

I agree in terms of offense only, great post. 

Edited December 3, 2019 by NBASupes

[turnermx]

13 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I agree in terms of offense only, great post. 

Season	Age	Tm	Lg	Pos	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS		ORtg	DRtg
2019-20	2x	ATL	NBA	SG	10	3	225	6.7	15.7	0.427	3.6	9.2	0.386	3.1	6.5	0.484	2.5	3.1	0.8	1.3	6.1	7.3	5.9	1.3	0.6	3.6	4.4	19.4		107	115
Season	Age	Tm	Lg	Pos	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS		ORtg	DRtg
2019-20	2x	ATL	NBA	SF	21	21	665	6.4	16.3	0.396	2.5	7	0.364	3.9	9.3	0.42	2.7	3.4	0.792	0.8	5.3	6.1	2.5	0.9	0.4	2.7	3.9	18.1		97	117

[turnermx]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/huntede01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/huertke01.html

The sample size is limited for Heurter this year and he was recovering from injury most of it.. nonetheless in advanced stats he was better than Hunter - slightly defensively and significantly better offensively.   The format excel friendly was all jacked up so I'll let you look for yourself if you're interested.

[AHF]

Huerter was 20 years old as a rookie last year and was a better offensive player than our 22 year old rookie.  Huerter is still almost a full year younger than Hunter but has been way better in his limited time this season.  Not sure why anyone would think Hunter is the better offensive player.

Hunter, age 22:  -0.021 OWS/48, 7.7 PER, .506% TS%, 0.95 A/TO ratio

Huerter, age 20 (age 21):  +0.017 OWS/48 (+0.047 OWS/48 this year), 10.1 PER (12.5 PER this year), .533% TS% (.570% TS% this year), 1.96 A/TO ratio (1.64 A/TO ratio this season).

 

This isn't close right now guys.  (Hunter is the much better defender).

[JayBirdHawk]

21 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I agree with 100% but this narrative that we are without two of our best three players makes me like wtf! No, not at all. Hunter and Trae is playing right?

It's not a narrative, just facts.

Hunter has played 21 games and has been inconsistent as expected.

Starting the season, it was supposed to be Trae, John and Kevin supplemented by our rookies.

Alas....fate saw otherwise. Sigh.

[turnermx]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

It's not a narrative, just facts.

Hunter has played 21 games and has been inconsistent as expected.

Starting the season, it was supposed to be Trae, John and Kevin supplemented by our rookies.

Alas....fate saw otherwise. Sigh.

It isn't an agenda for me at all, I like both guys. But lets be honest about Heurter, he isn't bad defensively, advanced stats are kind to him in that area. and he is much better offensively.  Hunter in my mind will be better, when he becomes consistent.  This can be said for 99% of rookies. They will both be valuable to the team if they both stay reasonably healthy.

[Spud2nique]

44 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Bonehead

I thought @AHF made Soth our backup point guard?... why would you call him that? Soth has been nothing but kind to us (except kg but kg gives it to him daily so there’s that).. 

 

 

[NBASupes]

10 minutes ago, AHF said:

Huerter was 20 years old as a rookie last year and was a better offensive player than our 22 year old rookie.  Huerter is still almost a full year younger than Hunter but has been way better in his limited time this season.  Not sure why anyone would think Hunter is the better offensive player.

Hunter, age 22:  -0.021 OWS/48, 7.7 PER, .506% TS%, 0.95 A/TO ratio

Huerter, age 20 (age 21):  +0.017 OWS/48 (+0.047 OWS/48 this year), 10.1 PER (12.5 PER this year), .533% TS% (.570% TS% this year), 1.96 A/TO ratio (1.64 A/TO ratio this season).

 

This isn't close right now guys.  (Hunter is the much better defender).

Just about every metric this season has Kevin being a slight negative this year on offense and a complete negative on defense. Don't give me his numbers from last year. We had a completely different supporting cast in general. We had reliable vets which we completely lack this year. Everyone but Trae and John numbers have taken a major tumble. 

[Spud2nique]

First off, I love Pierce as a players coach and possible motivator? My gripe with him is a bit on some play calling which has been discussed on a lot of threads.

I don’t want intricacies that are too deep and profound to get players confused but we are gonna need a lil more than : Trae get the ball up and open your eyes . 
 

Coach Lloyd needs to tutor up with Pop this summer too. Players aren’t the only ones who should improve. 
 

Having said that he’s a second year coach and deserves another 1.5 to get it going.

[NBASupes]

16 minutes ago, turnermx said:

It isn't an agenda for me at all, I like both guys. But lets be honest about Heurter, he isn't bad defensively, advanced stats are kind to him in that area. and he is much better offensively.  Hunter in my mind will be better, when he becomes consistent.  This can be said for 99% of rookies. They will both be valuable to the team if they both stay reasonably healthy.

He was worse defensively via the DRAYMOND than even Trae was as a rookie. My eye test on defense, he struggled severely to defend in space and M2M. He was best in terms of team defense and showcased a high defensive BBIQ. His defensive BBIQ was higher than both Trae and John as a rookie. 

This year it's been a mix bag. I know he is playing with much worse vets so it's not fair to him but he just hasn't looked good on that. For all players in the RAPTOR, he is like the 15th worse defender. That means limited mins, don't get to play much, two way call up, etc. 

I don't think it's close, from what I seen from Kevin, he seemed to have regressed even though he is a better shooter but maybe he just needs more time. He didn't fully get his athleticism back from that injury over the summer. 

Edited December 3, 2019 by NBASupes

[capstone21]

The who is better / more important Hunter vs Heurter is completely off the topic don't you think?  

[High5]

10 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Just about every metric this season has Kevin being a slight negative this year on offense and a complete negative on defense. Don't give me his numbers from last year. We had a completely different supporting cast in general. We had reliable vets which we completely lack this year. Everyone but Trae and John numbers have taken a major tumble. 

Those numbers are from 10 games and he was working his way back into game shape for most of them. He was looking a lot more like himself in the 3 or 4 games before Jokic chopped his arm off. Hunter may be better at those layups in traffic, but that’s all I’m giving him over Huerter right now on offense.

[High5]

2 minutes ago, capstone21 said:

The who is better / more important Hunter vs Heurter is completely off the topic don't you think?  

It’s not like the coach haters are actually going to respond to the OP. They’re conserving energy for their next tantrums.

[AHF]

39 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Just about every metric this season has Kevin being a slight negative this year on offense and a complete negative on defense. Don't give me his numbers from last year. We had a completely different supporting cast in general. We had reliable vets which we completely lack this year. Everyone but Trae and John numbers have taken a major tumble. 

Did you bother to actually read my post?  I gave his numbers from this year and they are better on offense than Hunter in just about every case.

Hunter, age 22:  -0.021 OWS/48, 7.7 PER, .506% TS%, 0.95 A/TO ratio

Huerter age 21:  +0.047 OWS/48, 12.5 PER, .570% TS%, 1.64 A/TO ratio 

Let's add a few more for the fun of it:

2019-20

Hunter ORTG 97, OBPM -2.6

Huerter ORTG 107, OBPM 0.0

 

Now let's look at the net numbers.  Kevin vs Deandre, this is subtracting Hunter's number from Kevin's. 

+0.068 OWS/48

+4.8 PER

+0.064% TS%

+.69 A/TO

+10 ORTG

+2.6 OBPM

Every one of these metrics has Kevin being much better than Hunter on offense.  Again, this isn't close.  Hunter is the better defender.  Huerter is the better offensive player.

 

The only metric I've seen that ranks Hunter better is the OFFRTG from NBA.com...which also thinks Jabari Parker is better offensively than Trae Young and that Hunter is basically Young's equal on offense.  I'll weight the metric that has Young > Parker >> Hunter (ORTG) over the one that has Parker > Young = Hunter (OFFRTG).  Like which of these makes more sense:

BBReference ORTG:

Trae Young 111

Jabari Parker 108

Deandre Hunter 97

 

NBA.com OFFRTG

Jabari Parker 110.2

Trae Young 109.0

Deandre Hunter 108.4

 

[BudBall]

IMO LP was meant to be a lame duck coach who was to help young players develop. I think once we start getting competent players, I believe Travis will aim to get a veteran coach.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

13 hours ago, EazyRoc said:

So, I know there’s a lot of people around here who feel this team would perform better with a different coach. 
 

Who would some of you all like to see (even if seemingly impossible), what type of impact do you think he would have on W/Ls, why do you want him/how do you think he’d help ?

 

 

Player development guru - Niele Ivey ( former Notre Dame Assistant Coach )

She's in the NBA now in Memphis now, with Ja Morant.  Give her a year.  She'll be ready.

Edited December 3, 2019 by TheNorthCydeRises

[REHawksFan]

10 minutes ago, High5 said:

It’s not like the coach haters are actually going to respond to the OP. They’re conserving energy for their next tantrums.

It's pretty telling that they only show up DURING GAMES to scream FIRE LP. 

[macdaddy]

I'm not sure why there is a debate on Heurter / Hunter.  I have high hopes for Hunter but right now it's pretty much wide open 3s and an occasional drive to the right. That's his offense.  Heurter's offensive game is much better.  He hits much tougher shots.   All that's right now though.  If Hunter progresses the way Heurter did last year then I'm super happy.  

[NBASupes]

56 minutes ago, AHF said:

Did you bother to actually read my post?  I gave his numbers from this year and they are better on offense than Hunter in just about every case.

Hunter, age 22:  -0.021 OWS/48, 7.7 PER, .506% TS%, 0.95 A/TO ratio

Huerter age 21:  +0.047 OWS/48, 12.5 PER, .570% TS%, 1.64 A/TO ratio 

Let's add a few more for the fun of it:

2019-20

Hunter ORTG 97, OBPM -2.6

Huerter ORTG 107, OBPM 0.0

 

Now let's look at the net numbers.  Kevin vs Deandre, this is subtracting Hunter's number from Kevin's. 

+0.068 OWS/48

+4.8 PER

+0.064% TS%

+.69 A/TO

+10 ORTG

+2.6 OBPM

Every one of these metrics has Kevin being much better than Hunter on offense.  Again, this isn't close.  Hunter is the better defender.  Huerter is the better offensive player.

 

The only metric I've seen that ranks Hunter better is the OFFRTG from NBA.com...which also thinks Jabari Parker is better offensively than Trae Young and that Hunter is basically Young's equal on offense.  I'll weight the metric that has Young > Parker >> Hunter (ORTG) over the one that has Parker > Young = Hunter (OFFRTG).  Like which of these makes more sense:

BBReference ORTG:

Trae Young 111

Jabari Parker 108

Deandre Hunter 97

 

NBA.com OFFRTG

Jabari Parker 110.2

Trae Young 109.0

Deandre Hunter 108.4

 

I saw age 20 and jumped to conclusions. 

There are  a number of metrics that value Hunter offensively over Kevin. 

The RAPTOR for example: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-nba-player-ratings/

 

I always rather NBA.com. it's based on lineup utilization while bref is based on per100 possessions. 

Trae Young value is more than his OffRtg in my eyes. NBA has a thing called PIE and Trae is significantly our best offensive player. Trae also has the most time with all types of units, he benefits positively and negatively due to this. For us, more negatively